AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE VII => Topic started by: lucasner on 02 Feb , 2014, 15:07
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I have found quite a few pics now of the MG mounted on the bridge. What I want to verify is that the mount looks like it was attached to one of the life-belt rings set into the bridge coaming. Is this true? Could it be mounted to any of them? It seems that in most of the pics I have found that it is on the starboard-rear side of the bridge, but I found one pic that shows it on the port side.
TIA
Dave
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Can you post a pic?
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Here are two of the best pics I could find on the web.
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In principle, not tooooo dissimilar to the US Gatos. They had a fist size round bit of pipe, with a small finger sized hole. There was a pin on the bottom of the swivel ount (.30 and .50), that just dropped in. Very low tech. This seems to be more sophisticated in that it is an elevated mount, but not anything wild.
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What I want to verify is that the mount looks like it was attached to one of the life-belt rings set into the bridge coaming. Is this true?
Not necessarily, as the next pictures show (though the MGs in the pictures were not MG 34s):
(?MG 81z, below)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/IMGP2281-1.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/IMGP2281-1.jpg.html)
(MG 15)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/IMGP2269-1.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/IMGP2269-1.jpg.html)
(MG 15)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/IMGP2272-1.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/IMGP2272-1.jpg.html)
(MG15)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/IMGP2278.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/IMGP2278.jpg.html)
(MG 15)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/IMGP2279-1.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/IMGP2279-1.jpg.html)
MG Mounts could be attached on one side (port and starboard side indifferently), both sides, not necessarily on the "life-belt rings area" of the turret. The mounts varied in terms of appearance even if MG 34 mounts seem to have quite a basic design if compared to the other MG type mounts which look more elaborate. Every boat differed from another in terms of field modifications and general appearance, so my advice is to pick up the boat you want to build, get as many pictures as possible of it, and base your project on those pictures.
Anyway, am sure most of the experts in the forum will add further specific information on the matter and hopefully post better pictures.
Interesting subject, thanks for bringing it up Dave!
Cheers!
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Just another one, please follow this link:
http://hermann-buesken.de/cd/Bild3.jpg (http://hermann-buesken.de/cd/Bild3.jpg)
The picture was taken from the typeseven/41 (U995) conning tower (ct).
I suppose one of these pictures from the post above shows the German MG 15 mounted on the ct-sidewalls. The MG 15 was the classic defense machine gun in aircraft bombers like "Heinkel" or "Condor". You can recognize the use of round magazines instead of munition-belts (hope I choose the correct translation) and the huge anti-aircraft sight.
There is a model kit in 1/72 available for this mentioned guns from the well known czech company Eduard. Just for those who are interested in upgrading the ct:
http://www.dersockelshop.de/militaermodellbau/militaermodellbau-1-72/1-72-flugzeuge/1-72-zubehoer/20084/mg-15-guns-/-1-72 (http://www.dersockelshop.de/militaermodellbau/militaermodellbau-1-72/1-72-flugzeuge/1-72-zubehoer/20084/mg-15-guns-/-1-72)
Regards
falo
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2 more shots, the mounts look more or less the same, but they differ from the MG 34 mount you posted, Dave:
(MG 34s)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/MG34.jpg)
(MG15, U960)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/u9603.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/u9603.jpg.html)
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SG
The pics that you posted are interesting to me. The top one has the standard MG34 top mount that is used on the ground Lafette "tripod" when it is converted to anti-aircraft . The part that attaches to the MG34 is a "Y" shaped yoke that slips into a pole on the Lafette. It looks like the same part that again slips into another pole like item on the sub.
Note the top pic on this page on a friends of mines website.
http://www.bergflak.com/PT34.htm
You will see the same "Y" yoke style piece going into the vertical pole. There is a button release on the side of the bottom of the yoke so you can remove with easy.
If you go to this part of his website and look towards the bottom of the page you might see my handle "42rocker" next to a couple of pics of another one of my hobby items.
http://www.bergflak.com/lafette/evo34.html
Any rate if you want to know more about the MG34 and or MG15 stuff I might know a few things if you have questions.
In one of the first pics there is not a "Y" yoke, it looks like the top part of a bipod has been welded to a pipe.
On both styles of hooking the barrel shroud on there is a semi circle that goes 1/2 way around the barrel shroud to lock onto. Takes a lot longer to remove than the push button that on that yoke piece.
Later Tim
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Later Tim,
I was inspired by your project to read the excellent book "U-boat war patrol" and found new pictures of the MG 34 mount, this time sported by U-564,which started to convince me that what i nicknamed the "S-rune mount" could really be a standard mount for U-boat MGs. I have found it in many pictures of late type VII with Turm 0 and turm IV configuration.
(U564)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/IMGP2281-2.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/IMGP2281-2.jpg.html)
(U564)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/U564mg.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/U564mg.jpg.html)
The "S-Rune mount" in detail (below)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/IMGP2269-1.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/IMGP2269-1.jpg.html)
On Turm 0 VIIB and early C types and on type IX boats the basic Y-shaped mount can be seen more frequently, such as in the case of U-124 below:
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/U124.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/U124.jpg.html)
To date none has really replied to the original question by lucasner: were the mounts attached to modified "life-belt ring holes"? so far I still havent found a clear picture showing an MG 34, its Y-mount and the conning tower area where it attaches on a turm-0 (basic) configurated boat.
I think that Lucasner assumptions are basically correct, in one of the pictures he published it's quite evident that the mount fills a life-belt hole actually, but it's possibile that mounts could be fixed to different holes on the tower designed specifically to host the MG mount, like the two that can be seen in the picture below on the portside of the turret, aft to the last life-belt ring hole (far left on the picture). Who knows?
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/u94late.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germedia/Uboats/u94late.jpg.html)
(A propos of this picture, the UZO cover is a fake, the picture has been retouched, i managed to find the original picture which showed a normal, "naked" UZO ;D )
The picture below shows details of U-552 turret where the possible siting for an MG mount is visible. It's located aft of the last life belt ring hole, exactly in the same spot of the hole sited above the wood chips shown in the previous pic. A modified life-belt ring hole or something meant specifically for the gun mount?
Whatever the answer is that's the place i would probably choose to put a gun mount on a Turm 0, 1941-42 VIIC model..
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/u552.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/u552.jpg.html)
Thanks for replying, I think this is an interesting subject for modellers!!
cheers
SG
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Very interesting pics. Thanks for the share.
Later Tim
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Hi all
Been following this thread with interest and thought the following items might be of interest if you are intending to build bridge mounted machine guns onto your models:
First our old friends CMK;
7086 MG 15 machine guns (8 , resin, from the instructions would appear to come with 7 spare magazines
Q72139 MG 15 Magazines (28), resin
Also Eduard, Eduard Brassin;
672017 MG 15 (2), resin and brass, come with shell collector and 2 spare magazines
672019 MG 81Z (2 pairs), resin
And finally from Mini World, available from Hannants and others;
7221 MG 15 brass (1) with shell collector (different to Eduard type)
and finally the one you are all hoping for
7218 MG 34 (1)
Prices are:
£7.00 for CMK MG 15
£4.50 for the Eduard guns from Hannants
£7.50 for the Mini World MG 15 and, hold your breath £16.80 for the MG34, again from Hannants.
Regards
Jon
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beautiful little wonders!! ;D
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really nice!
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Hi Cap,
thanks for sharing. Built the single one from eduard brassin a few months ago and it was very very very fiddly. To give the wooden grasp and the leather stripe the brown color it is recommended to use a fine brush with not more than one hair ;)
Regards
Falo
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Oh I'm sure they are fiddly! But they look nice...!
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Hi Gents,
found a good example of the typeseven41 conning tower with two mounted Machine Guns. In addition look at the gas cylinder. AFAIK the gas was you used for balloons to fake the allied radar. So the radar "recognize" every single balloon as an uboat. Certainly this trick only works by night.
http://misc.kitreview.com/shipreviews/hg224previewbg_1.htm (http://misc.kitreview.com/shipreviews/hg224previewbg_1.htm)
Regards
falo
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Hey! I found this: U132 at La Pallice.
Looks like the MG-34 mount is fixed to the starboard ventilation grid. Unfortunately the hand of the commander and the rope don't allow to clarify if the mount is an "S-rune" one or a simple Y-type support.
Cheers!
SG
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/U132.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/s-germani/media/Uboats/U132.jpg.html)
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Hi fall et al,
Normally on a 7c/41 the hydrgen bottle would be mounted under the lower platform of the wintergarten and was used for both Aphrodite decoy and more commonly, weather balloons.
Regards
Jon
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Hi,
An update of an old post after coming across some newfounds. Different types of mounts, seen and unseen.
The "S-rune" mount is finally showing clearly (MG 15, U 333, and MG 34, U 613). Simple "Y-type" mounts for MG 34 (U 132, also see my previous post on this thread), MG 15 (U 466) and what seems to be twin MG15s (U 953), a totally different and quite elaborate mount for MG 81z (U 262) and finally a not-so-clear but probably a simple Y-type mount for an MG 34 (late U 48). Also, different mount sitings on the tower sides: ventilation grid, mid or after part of the turret bulwarks. The individuality of Uboats is once again, more than ever true. Enjoy:
(https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/t/mgmounts.jpg)
https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/mgmounts.jpg (https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/mgmounts.jpg)
Cheers,
SG
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Hi SG,
Good work. Lots of different styles evident there. Here is a photo of U 172 which may interest you -
(https://u.cubeupload.com/dougie47/U1723.jpg)
There were four machine guns added to U 68 at one point rather than the two which we see in other photos.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Neat detail, excellent as usual Dougie 8)
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Hi, I received my copy of "U552, the red devil boat" today and I finally found the answer to an old guess of mine about U552 conning tower sitings for the additional MG34 that i had posted on 25 April 2014 on this thread. This amazing picture confirms that U552 was equipped with the "Y-type" mount for the MG and shows that there were multiple sitings for the mount in the fore and after part of the conning tower bulwark (arrows). I was right about the siting in the after part of the tower but i had totally ignored/failed to guess the possible presence of sitings in the fore part. Once again photographic evidence was crucial and we finally know more.
(https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/t/U552tower.jpg)
https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U552tower.jpg (https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U552tower.jpg) (link to bigger pic)
Cheers,
SG
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Great book isn't it?
Yes I noticed the MG mounts as well.
I collect every U552 picture and Video I find so upon buying the book I found it both has a few new ones and some much clearer ones I already have.
The only slight disappointment is they didn't include every picture of U552, I've got some not in the book. Also they used video stills and called them pictures taken by the War correspondent.
But I still give it a 9 out of 10
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Hi,
just found a beautiful picture finally showing clearly the details of one of the MG 34 mount variants and the manning of the MG. The MG34 mount looks like to be of the same type as the one equipping U552. A third variant which is not the classic "pole + Y-type" nor the "S-rune + Y-type joint" seen previously. Same simple "pole-like" mount but different joint for the MG. I was wrong: not a Y-type mount for U552, something different. Now we definitely know a little more.
(https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/t/IMG0903.jpg)
https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/IMG0903.jpg (https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/IMG0903.jpg) (link to bigger pic)
Great book isn't it?
Yes I noticed the MG mounts as well.
The only slight disappointment is they didn't include every picture of U552, I've got some not in the book. Also they used video stills and called them pictures taken by the War correspondent.
But I still give it a 9 out of 10
Raymic1 I agree with you: a magnificent book! To me, a perfect 10 cum laude ;D .
I am not into book publishing but i guess sometimes the amount of pictures just exceeds the space planned on a book, or just doesn't fit with the text. Constantly hunting for pics, like most of us do, fills that gap, speaking of which am sure you have quite a treasure of U552 pics 8) . It's amazing how much the amount of new U-boat pictures has increased over time (i am thinking of the last 10 years alone), maybe due to the release of many private collections that are sold to antiques shops by the relatives of the late owners.
Cheers,
SG
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Hi SG,
Nice photo showing the gun and mount. Which boat is this?
Cheers,
Dougie
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Dougie,
Unknown. Unfortunately the picture caption doesn't say anything about the boat, just focusing on the MG 34. The position of the mount siting, aft of the last lifebelt hole, the gyrocompass forward to the periscope housing and the striped wooden panel make me think of a type VII (only the handrail is a bit odd), but the boat id number is a real mystery. Unfortunately there's not even a cap badge that can help us to identify the boat.
Cheers,
SG
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Hi SG,
Yes, it is the handrail near the top which is confusing me. It does look like a Type VII due to the slope near the top of the inside of the tower wall. The Type IXs were at a 90 degree angle so it isn't that type.
I was expecting to see a bit of the intake trunk at the left side of the photo rather than a handrail.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Dougie,
Assuming that the picture was taken from the main tower hatch looking toward the wintergarden the intake trunk should place itself where the sailor with the cap is standing. That's how I interpreted the picture: hatch/photographer -> gyrocompass/periscope mount -> life-belt hole/after wooden panel -> MG-mount/sailors -> wintergarden. (Nevetheless that handrail is rather unusual for a Type VII).
Does it make sense?
SG
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Hi SG,
Thanks, that makes sense and I get the angle we are seeing now. I have looked at a few photos and U 373 (see page 53 of Robert C Stern's Type VII U-Boats if you have it) has a handrail in this position, though the handrail is longer on U 373 than on our mystery boat.
It must be an early VII due to the rounded edge of the wooden panelling.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Dougie,
I have looked at a few photos and U 373 (see page 53 of Robert C Stern's Type VII U-Boats if you have it) has a handrail in this position, though the handrail is longer on U 373 than on our mystery boat.
Yess, I see it. Sharp eye! Very good spotting on that. U 373 handrail is definitely longer.
It must be an early VII due to the rounded edge of the wooden panelling.
I agree, an early VIIc with a turret configuration similar to that of U 96 and U 552 with the sloping extending to the aft edges of the turret bulwark and the intake (slat) located on the outer sides of the tower, or a VIIb. Notice how much space the U373 intake trunk takes. It just would't fit in with our photo. And yess, that wooden panel. Excellent analysis, as usual!
Cheers,
SG
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Hi Dougie,
The possible solution came under my nose this morning, by chance, reading issue 19 of UBiF: U94!
Same handrail bilaterally and same lenght of the handrail (a), same Turm configuration and same MG 34 mount with the "cylindrical joint" (b) as the mystery boat. Am not saying that the boat is the same boat pictured in that closeup but yess, it's an early VIIC, as you correctly pointed out. Plus I learned that a handrail on the inner tower sides of a VIIc is not an odd find after all ;D .
(https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/t/U94.jpg)
https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U94.jpg (https://u.cubeupload.com/SGm/U94.jpg)
Cheers,
SG
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Hi SG,
Nice find. I can see the U 94 photo and handrail in UiF 19.
There is also a handrail a bit lower down on U 553 (which has the slat intake on the outside of the tower) on page 10 of UiF 17. U 553 did have the machine gun mounted in a different photo.
I think that U 94 didn't have the handrail originally and it was fitted at some point - perhaps 1942 or so. It could be other slat boats other than U 94 and U 553 had these handrails in 1942 but we don't see them in some photos because the photos were taken prior to the handrails being fitted.
Some other VIICs such as U 415 did have a handrail but this was about three-quarters of the way up the bulwark rather than near the top.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Super 8)