AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE VII => Topic started by: bill_c on 27 Jul , 2009, 20:48
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I am curious if anyone has any information on WHY the British navy scuttled over a 100 U-boats at the end of the war instead of scrapping them? Given Britain's economic mess in the late 1940s, it would seem to have been a natural outcome instead of sinking all that valuable iron.
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I found this while surfing...
By the winter of 1945/1946, the Brits debated if this formidable armada of enemy vessels was more of a liability than an asset. Many of the boats were in very poor mechanical condition, sorely in need of parts and maintenance. Most were made totally obsolete due to the advances made in their newer, faster, deeper-diving, quieter sisters. Considered of no practical value, the decision was made to scuttle them. Thus, in more-or-less random order, 121 captured U-boats were disposed of in a program known as Operation Deadlight. Towed in groups of six to ten to pre-arranged offshore dump sites well beyond the 20-fathom curve, the boats were scuttled with demolition charges. The bulk of the boats disposed of in this operation (93) were conventionally-powered Type II, VII, IXC and IXD hulks. Twenty-two of the fast new Elektro submarines and four of the larger XXI type were also scuttled in this manner. Last to be sunk in Operation Deadlight was U-3514, its sea valves opened on 12 February 1946.
All 32 remaining U-boats were eventually divided between the Allies as prizes of war. In this distribution, twelve units became British prizes. Eight of each went to the Soviets and France. Four to Norway. Some of these vessels were used briefly in research roles, others were eventually broken up as scrap or sunk as Naval targets by their respective owners.
I guess there was a lot of political reasons and mostly allied wanted to show people that justice always follows the sword of the winner! The value of the scrap metal is indeed interesting question...
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Hi Anakin and Bill,
Good point about the economic situation post war. There was still rationing for years afterwards. There may have been some in the Royal Navy that were pleased to scuttle the boats rather than scrap them. After all, only a few years before that, the U-boats were were rather too successful against the brave men in the merchant navy.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Something about the retribution idea doesn't make sense to me because the Brits also destroyed much of their own materiel.
To my knowledge, there is only one HP Halifax remaining (it's in Trenton, Ontario, not far from me) and 2 flyable AVRO Lancasters and another few on pylons. There aren't many Spitfires or Hurricanes and no Mosquitos that I know of.
You hardly see any Churchill tanks, Valentines, and such either.
Meanwhile, the Americans have all sort of B-17's, Mustangs, Duantlesses etc. and Sherman tanks are a dime a dozen.
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Its a petty they did not save two of each things after the war :( Just imagine finding a warehouse with two original Type VII's in it.....Would answer many of our questions.
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LOL, they might need more than 2. There's so much variation in them all, that they might have to have a dozen to answer all the questions.
Obviously, their sense of history wasn't as developed at the time as ours is now. Must have just been such a relief that the war was over that they didn't think this far ahead.
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"two of each things".....That the entomologist in me ;D ;D You must collected a male and female of anything.
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would 2x VIIs make a IX? or a XXI? or no, you'd need 3 for that
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Male and female U-boats? That's a funny thought Snowman!
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Hello All!
Very interesting bit here. I remember that my father once told me that when U-805 was surrendered ; the Americans removed certain equipment off the Boat and they took the latest Trops. off . They then took the Boat off Cape Cod and opened the valves and let her go....! What a waste.... a Type IX C/40 in their hands and they let her go!!! As I remember after Vietnam they did the same thing with equipment, supplies etc... they just dumped it all! I saw so much waste when I was in the Marines, if the public ever knew they would scream!!
Regards,
Dan
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Dan,
I remember when I was in Desert Storm. We were over their for many months before the war kicked off. When we started moving up to get on line with the "Berm" they tole us to pack what we could and bury the rest.....we buried a whole refrigderated semi truck...very crazy time.
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I think the same with the end of WWII, trucks, jeeps, "useless" supplies were left or destroyed. You'd think th metal alone would be a resource, not for $$$ but for the fact that metal ain't renewable!
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wildspear, I can imagine archaeologists 1,000 years from now (if humans haven't managed to kill themselves off by then) digging into suspicious looking sand dunes in the desert, and coming across these strange machines and wondering what they were used for and how they were powered? (unlikely to be much petroleum left by then either).
As rokket says, metal ain't renewable so most vehicles left unburied would have long since either been recycled into something else or rusted away in the wet air, leaving that buried reefer truck as one of the only examples of 20th century technology they have.
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Its a petty they did not save two of each things after the war :( Just imagine finding a warehouse with two original Type VII's in it.....Would answer many of our questions.
Back in 2001 I was doing research for a diorama of a U-boat sub pen such as the ones built along the west coast of (then ) occupied France. Somewhere among all that information was an article about how at least one of the concrete bunkers housed two intact U-boats, but had been sealed off because the Germans had dumped a ton of unexploded ordinance in that chamber around the boats and the dangers greatly outweighed any potential exploration. I have searched through my notes, as well as on the Internet but found nothing as of today to verify this.
Many of the subpens are still in use today, both by the French navy and by private businesses for winter storage of pleasure craft. I do know that some of them are permantely sealed off.
It'a an intriguing thought that there may be a few WW2 German subs still in existence.
Anybody with a metal detector want to crawl in there? ;D
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I think I remember only a couple of years ago they found a Type VIIC/41 in a U-boat sub pen in France. I think a Type VIIC was laying on top of it. Can anyone remember this?
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I think I remember only a couple of years ago they found a Type VIIC/41 in a U-boat sub pen in France. I think a Type VIIC was laying on top of it. Can anyone remember this?
Not in France all the U-bunkers (Bordeaux, Brest, la Pallice, Keroman, Saint-Nazaire) have been explorated for long.
But in Hamburg, yes, the collapsed U-bunker ELBE-II has been searched in 1985 and the exploration team has found ... Four typ XXI !
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Hi Ronguil
Thanks for the update :) :) It nice to get the correct information.
Also welcome aboard!
Simon
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I think I remember only a couple of years ago they found a Type VIIC/41 in a U-boat sub pen in France. I think a Type VIIC was laying on top of it. Can anyone remember this?
Not in France all the U-bunkers (Bordeaux, Brest, la Pallice, Keroman, Saint-Nazaire) have been explorated for long.
But in Hamburg, yes, the collapsed U-bunker ELBE-II has been searched in 1985 and the exploration team has found ... Four typ XXI !
Incredible! and what have they done with them?
Karel
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Incredible! and what have they done with them?
Karel
The four U-booten had been looted during years, huge parts were missing. Finaly a car park has been constructed over the wrecked base, but three XXI are still under.
Follow these links, gents :
http://www.geschichtsspuren.de/artikel/42/168-u-boot-bunker-hamburg.html
http://uboat.net/history/hamburg_elbe2.htm
http://uboat.net/flotillas/bases/hamburg_bunkers.htm
Regards
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Thank you very much, this is so interesting ;)
Karel
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Hi Ronguil
Thanks for the update :) :) It nice to get the correct information.
Also welcome aboard!
Simon
Thanks a lot.
Thank you very much, this is so interesting ;)
Karel
You are welcome.
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Hi All
There a picture of a Type VIIC laying on it side in this article (below). Does anyone know the date and/or the U-boat number? As she looks like that she have a early style balcongerat :o :o
(http://www.geschichtsspuren.de/plugins/content/mavikthumbnails/thumbnails/150x109-images-stories-Artikel-elbe2_fink2-112_boote.jpg)
http://www.geschichtsspuren.de/artikel/42/168-u-boot-bunker-hamburg.html
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Hi All
There a picture of a Type VIIC laying on it side in this article (below). Does anyone know the date and/or the U-boat number? As she looks like that she have a early style balcongerat :o :o
(http://www.geschichtsspuren.de/plugins/content/mavikthumbnails/thumbnails/150x109-images-stories-Artikel-elbe2_fink2-112_boote.jpg)
http://www.geschichtsspuren.de/artikel/42/168-u-boot-bunker-hamburg.html
Picture taken right after the 9th april 1945 RAF bombing. Two VIIC were piered in one of the pen : U-667 and U-982.
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Hi Ronguil
I check U-982 and yes it was a training boat, so this fix the picture (the strip around the CT) and this is very likely why she could have what I believe is a first version of balcongerat for the Type VII.
I just had another look at this picture and it not at balcongerat :( but just the hydrophone :-[ :-[
However, several web sites list U-667 as lost on 25 Aug 1944 :-\ :-\ So if this is correct, the other boat can not be U-667.
http://www.uboat.net/boats/u667.htm (http://www.uboat.net/boats/u667.htm)
http://www.ubootwaffe.net/ops/boat.cgi?boat=667 (http://www.ubootwaffe.net/ops/boat.cgi?boat=667)
http://www.number59.com/new_59/uboats/u667.html (http://www.number59.com/new_59/uboats/u667.html)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_667 (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_667)
Dougie, do you know which information is correct? Also it is a good example of the Atlantic bow. You can really see the change of angle in the bow section.
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Hi Simon,
Yes, I agree. Unlikely to be U 667 if the photo was taken in April 1945. And yeah, you really can see the profile of the Atlantic bow in that photo.
Cheers,
Dougie
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However, several web sites list U-667 as lost on 25 Aug 1944 :-\ :-\ So if this is correct, the other boat can not be U-667.
My bad. :-\
The U-667 has been lost in a Lorient approach minefield, you're right.
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No worry :) Several other web sites, also listed it as U-667.
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Hello,
The Elbe II bunker in Hamburg housed 3 type XXI boats (U-2505, U-3004, U-3506) at the end of hostilities. U2501 (Type XXI) is recorded as scuttled outside the bunker in 1945, as well as the U-684 and U-685 (Type VII's). The bunker was partially destroyed in 1945. During the 1950's, U-2501 was removed for scrap, and the sterns were blown off the others. In 1995 the boxes were filled with gravel and today the whole area is paved over. (modified due to misinformation)
Some good pictures of the bunker immediately after the war: http://uboat.net/gallery/Elbe-1945/
Regards,
Brian
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Now the question I want to know is... if there are still some u-boats hidden away in time capsules out there, anyone else want to exercise the great maritime art of salvage and commandeer a sample? We seem to have enough people here to do it! :P
I have no hard evidence to back this up, but I have heard that during WWII the Italians developed a part or method to keep the spent casings. It'd make for a cleaner battlefield and they could then have been recycled! Much easier than devising a tool to automatically collect spent tanks, ships and subs though...
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VonStigler: thanks for the link, interesting pix. Love the XXIs, so funky and modern!
Engima: didn't you ever see the Frank Sinatra movie "Assault on a Queen?" They raised her with one man (Frank) and used car batteries...totally believable ;D
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Ah Wink, I seen that movie when I was a kid one Saturday night on the telly and I loved it. I put a question on Yahoo answers a couple of years ago looking for the title of this movie about some guys who raise a U boat and use her to rob a ship. I got my answer and bought the movie on
ebay. I always remeber the scene where they are posing as British customs and one guy says " Lootenant" and the guy on the ship questions his pronounciation, cos thats one of my pet hates. The british pronounciation is Leftennant, and the American Lootenant, They say Leutnant when its German, so why not keep it right and say Leftennant when its British?
Rant ovah! ;D
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Me too. back then I thought it was Great Stuff! Longed to watch it again, FINALLY found it, and "great"? Not so much. That slip of Loot" gave him away! James Franciscus I think. Funny to watch again!
Like, HOW did 1 guy blow ballast, in the dark, and fit in the hatch with scuba tanks, and...oh well.
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Thats it, Im gonna have to dig it out and watch it again tonight, cos its on my mind now!
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I'd been searching for it for 5 yrs! Then my wife found it on a TV search, and we recorded it. NOT the same, sad to say, but definitely watch it!
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Yeah, it definately didnt have quite the magic that it had when I watched it in the early 70`s. VERY far fetched but good fun if you dont take it to seriously :D
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absolutely!
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Sorry, TOO seriously, my spelling was poor there :-[
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And Wink, dont even get me started on U571! What a pile of... :-X.... Talk about re-writing history! So many inacurasies!
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oh yeah! The worst part is, like the remake a few years ago of Pearl Harbor, there was no need to mess up so bad! There are real stories that would make 100 good films.
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There was a program on TVO, (Channel 2, Toronto) tonight , Oct 11, called "Coast". It's originally a BBC program so might be available through their website also.
This episode was the coast of Ireland from Dublin to Londonderry.
Why I'm mentioning it here is because the last 5 or 10 minutes of the program the host was interviewing a woman who was a WREN at the end of WWII and was sent down to the docks to film the U-boat fleet as it came in to surrender at the end of the war. She showed photographs of the boats coming in, and of at least one U-boat commander as he tried (unsuccessfully) to shake the hand of the hand of the senior British naval officer.
They also showed some short videos of the boats coming in and then the end of the boats as they were used for target practice by the RCN and RAF, and the last second of the boats with cannon fire, aerial depth charges and naval artillery sending them to the bottom.
There were a few good shots of typical Type VII's, and you could get a good feel of their size with the crew moving about on deck.
It might be worth it for anybody interested to try and find this show online.
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that sounds like a great resource, love the video for all the reasons you state.