AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE VII => Topic started by: Mr. Bill on 21 Jan , 2009, 12:09
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Greetings!
I am new here and would greatly appreciate help with some questions regarding the very early Type VIIB's that were commissioned during 1938. In particular, I am interested in U-45 and U-47 as commissioned. I reviewed the excellent materials prepared by Dougie Martindale and also the superb photos of U-45 that were recently released by the Bundesarchiv. Specifically, I am interested in the deck configuration between the conning tower and the galley hatch. Just behind the conning tower, there is a red & white rescue buoy on the centerline of the deck. Behind the rescue buoy marker there is gap of about a meter or so and then there is the mount for the 20mm gun. My question is about the space between the 20mm gun and galley deck hatch - was there a watertight container (similar to the one near the forward 88 deck gun) or not? I don't see anything in this area from the photos, just the plain deck. Later Type VIIB's seem to have a watertight container in this location. The commissioning day photos of U-45 do not seem to show a watertight container in this area, but maybe I am missing something?
My other question concerns the location of the forward red/white rescue buoy. I understand that is located about a meter behind the capstan, but was it on the deck centerline or offset to the port side?
Thanks for your help with this.
Mr. Bill
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Welcome aboard.
Yes
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Many thanks for the reply and the information which is helpful. I am still not certain about the early type VIIB's commissioned in 1938. Have a look (zoom in if you can) at this commissioning day photo of U-45 that Siara posted in December. The red/white rescue buoy, 20mm gun, and galley hatch are all there, but no watertight container:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Bundesarchiv_Bild_200-Ub0111%2C_Kiel%2C_Indienststellung_U-45.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Bundesarchiv_Bild_200-Ub0111%2C_Kiel%2C_Indienststellung_U-45.jpg)
Perhaps these watertight containers were retrofitted to the early VIIB boats when the 20mm was moved to the enlarged wintergarten? The later Type VIIB's that were built with the enlarged wintergarten seem to have had these watertights containers from commissioning.
Does anyone have further information on this?
Thank you.
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You are right about the rescue buoy location in the picture.
It looks like the Type VII & VIIB U-boats before mid-1940 had a rescue buoy located between the 20mm gun, and galley hatch. From around mid-1940, they begin to enlarger the wintergarten and removing the rescue buoy from the earlier VIIB
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Hi guys,
Apologies for not joining this thread earlier, this is the first time I could respond. Thanks for raising the question Mr. Bill, and welcome. Snowman has made some very decent responses so I will try not to repeat them.
On 19 August 1939, before the VIIBs sailed to take up positions in the Atlantic prior to hostilities, the pre-war markings were removed. The red and white buoys were moved under the deck at this time too.
Around the Jan/Feb 1940 time, VIIBs had the 20mm moved to the tower. It was a harsh winter so there would be plenty of time in refit anyway. These early VIIBs never had the ammo hatch on the aft deck, nor was this feature added to the early VIIBs.
However, the later VIIBs (which always had the 20mm on the tower) were all built with an ammo hatch on the rear deck.
For U 47 modifications please see -
http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=870&page=2
Cheers,
Dougie
PS Thanks for your contributions Snowman...very nice!
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Thanks Dougie and Snowman for the information which confirms the photos I have seen of early and late Type VIIB's. This is one more flaw with the Amati kit which has the 20mm and the watertight ammo container on the deck between the tower and the galley hatch. I was considering using the Amati photoetch along with the Revell kit to model an early VIIB like U-45, but it seems like this would require some major modifications to the brass deck.
Thanks again for your help!
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Hi Mr. Bill,
Ah, the Amati kit! I wrote an article years ago listing the shortcomings of the kit, with about 100 inaccuracies noted. The Amati kit became instantly redundant upon the release of the Revell kit. If you want an early VIIB just use the Revell VIIC and convert.
I agree that the Amati deck doesn't fit on the Revell kit.
The Amati tower looks okay. But when one lays the Amati tower on the Revell kit, the tower looked a bit small to me. That is my memory of it, anyway. Now I don't have any of the Amati kit parts to check.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Hello Dougie,
Many thanks for your assistance. Your articles on U-47, flood vents, and colours are excellent. I would very much like to see your article on the Amati kit, can you send it to me or tell me where it is posted?
I fully agree that the Revell kit has rendered the Amati kit obsolete, but I think it may actually be better, faster, and easier to use the Revell kit along with the Amati brass deck to model a fairly accurate early VIIB boat. After making a side by side comparison with the Revell deck parts, I was surprised to discover that the Amati deck would fit nicely onto the Revell hull. Other than the area around the 88 deck gun, there are no gaps between Amati brass deck and the edge of Revell hull. The brass deck does sit too low, but can easily be raised with strip styrene to make a flush fit. It also seemed better to convert the Revell tower rather than modify the Amati resin tower.
In addition to the incorrect aft deck watertight container (discussed earlier), one other problem (as you already know) with the Amati brass deck is the center line ventilation duct on the conning tower deck. Rather than convert the Revell deck, I decided to try and correct the problems with the Amati brass. The Amati photo etch brass is very heavy and extremely difficult to cut, but I managed to carefully remove the incorrect watertight container section and replace it with a portion of the galley hatch which has to be removed anyway in order to use the separate galley hatch part. The conning tower deck correction involved drilling several tiny holes in the blank ventilation duct space and then trying to square the holes to match the surrounding details. Due to the thickness of the brass this was very difficult. The results are not perfect, but acceptable.
Rather than try to correct the Amati kit resin tower, I decided to modify the Revell parts using the Amati kit as a guide. As you know, the VIIB tower is smaller in length and width compared to the VIIC so it is necessary to reduce the Revell tower parts in both dimensions. I did compromise with the round vent holes on the sides of the tower by using the Amati brass parts with some modifications. The size, pattern, and number of holes on the Amati kit are not correct, but I could not think of a better alternative.
After making these modifications and test fitting the parts, I was very pleased with the results so far. More finishing work on the conning tower and deck is needed, but I think it will work. I need help with the details on the inside of the conning tower for an early VIIB, especially the periscope housing (which seems very different than the VIIC) and the size/pattern of the wood slats which I think are very different from the later VIIB boats. Maybe these were totally absent at the time of commissioning? Do you have any photos or diagrams of the inside of an early type VIIB tower?
Using your excellent articles, the Revell hull parts can be modified to match an early VIIB. I see only one real problem and that involves the 19 flood vent holes in the lower row on the port side. There is no space on the kit part to add the required two extra vents without cutting away and reshaping the forward part of saddle tank. I think I will compromise on this detail and have just the 17 flood vents rather than attempt major surgery on the kit parts.
One other detail I am uncertain about involves the missing three flood vents that follow the curve of the after part of the saddle tanks. Although these three vents appear on later VIIB and VIIC boats, I am not sure if they correct for an early VIIB. My reason for this is a photo on page 16 of TYPE VII U-BOATS by Robert Stern. The photo shows an early VIIB prior to launching which does not have the three holes. Do you think this is correct or am I missing something here?
Thanks for your help,
Mr. Bill
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I added eight photos to the gallery section "On the Bench" showing the Amati brass deck test fitted to the Revell hull and the comparisons of the modified Revell tower and resin Amati tower. I'm not sure why, but I can see only one of the photos in the gallery unless I click on "My Images" and then they all appear, but only my photos? I may have done something wrong, so please let me know if I need to do something else with these photos.
Thanks!
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Hi Mr. Bill, I only saw one picture in the gallery. The deck in that picture looked like it will fit just fine. I can't comment on the Amati kit as I have not built it.
Not sure what you could have done wrong when posting your photos. Have you tried to post them in this thread using the "Additional Comments" button? That may work.
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Hopefully pic posting is all OK now, let us know...
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Hello everyone and thanks for your help. All of the photos now appear in the gallery under "On The Bench" and I have added a description and comments for each photo. If you have any questions or comments, please let me know.
Regards,
Mr. Bill
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Mr Bill- im impressed. :o
Its going to be lovely conversion.
Regarding your problems with correct hole pattern on the side of the CT- ive posted the comment there with possible fix.
Hope it helps.
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Hi Mr. Bill,
I think the deck will work just fine. The build should be pretty interesting and fun!
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Hi Mr. Bill,
Great work, you are doing very well with your model. I really like how you have altered the brass tower floor, and made it fit into the new tower.
The best photo I have for inside tower is -
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U51_A1_6aug38_com.jpg)
Note that the wooden slats are smaller (and with rounded edges on the top) than on later boats. That shows the attack persicope housing too. The following shows the 20mm mount -
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U48_A1_22apr39_com.jpg)
The photo of page 16 of Stern...I do know this photo. One day I thought, where the hell are the slots near the props? Then it occured to me that they might not have cut them out yet! The boat isn't finished.
I'll post the article in bits in the next few posts. It is an old article and I haven't updated it at all. I gave up listing more inaccuracies when the Revell kit was released!
Cheers,
Dougie
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Inaccuracies In The Amati 1/72nd U 47 Model Kit
Part 1
The Amati 1/72nd Type VIIB U-boat model depicts U 47 during the Scapa Flow attack on the 13th/14th October 1939. The mixed-media kit consists of a 3-foot long resin hull, wooden interior supports and a photo-etched brass deck. I bought my kit several years ago for around
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Inaccuracies In The Amati 1/72nd U 47 Model Kit
Part 2
Conning tower
The shape of the Amati resin tower captures the look of U 47
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Many, many thanks to everyone that has responded with advice and information! I have searched everywhere for this kind of information and only here was able to find the answers. Having a look at the other projects here is a real inspiration for a newbie and I do appreciate your help and comments. It will take me a few days or so to digest all of this information and better plan for my build of an early VIIB (probably U-45), but I will be sure to post my progress from time to time and seek advice as needed.
Thank You,
Mr. Bill
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Hello Mr. Bill, I found a website that might be of help to you: http://www.u47.org/
It has a large collection of photos of U-47. By the way, have you made any progress on your model?
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Thanks bracco_n for the website link, it has some great photos and information about U-47 including some pre-war. The assistance and information that everyone here has provided me has been fantastic and has given me the encouragement to move forward with my project.
After reviewing all of the great information that was provided to me, I have have selected U-45 as the subject of my build and have been hard at work this past month. There are a group of excellent photos of U-45 taken in 1938, including some commissioning ceremony snaps that are very good. I will be using both the Revell and Amati kit to model this very early, actually first, Type VIIB. Once I get my digital camera functioning again, I will start a work in progress and post photos. In the meantime, a brief summary of my progress:
I have been concentrating on the conning tower and it is about 90% complete. After reviewing all of the excellent information that was provided to me, I decided that my early attempt on the conning tower could be improved. The biggest challenges were the flooding holes on the sides, the bronze eagle on the front, the conning tower deck, and the attack periscope housing.
After trying several approaches on the flooding holes, I finally found an excellent, but tedious solution, using some obscure railroad photoetch grating that, when modified, provides an exact match for both the hole size and pattern. The results are very impressive.
The bronze eagle emblem that pre-war boats had fastened to the front of the tower was a real scratch building challenge for me. The eagle is very small in 1/72nd scale and has to be curved to conform to the tower shape. I ended up carefully carving/shaping the eagle from an old spare part having the proper curve. The most difficult part involved constructing a tiny swastika for the circle that is grasped in the talons of the eagle. I am not 100% satisfied with the result, once I post a photo perhaps someone can suggest a way to improve my effort. Alternatively, if anyone knows where I can obtain a properly scaled white metal or photoetch eagle, that would be the ideal solution.
Initially, I tried to modify the Amati photoetch conning tower deck. It needs added square holes where the incorrect air duct is located. I did manage to make the holes and attempted to square them somewhat, but the brass is too thick to obtain decent results. After some careful measurements, I found that the Revell Type VIIC tower deck could be modified to an early VIIB configuration. This involved some tricky styrene surgery and very carefully alignment to rearrange the various deck grating pieces. The results are very nice and far superior to the modified Amati brass part.
Based on photos of early VIIB boats, I believe the shape of the attack periscope housing is very different from later boats. It appears to have a more wider base that tapers toward the rear ending in a vertical trailing edge that runs from the deck up to the top. Viewed from above, it would appear as a water drop. The holes and foot rail are also different from later boats and there is an angular bracket attached to the bottom rear of the housing that I think was used to hold a life belt. There is no rail at the top of the housing where the scope tip is located. I think I got it right - I will post a photo as soon as possible.
There is one feature of the scope housing that I am uncertain about. I don't think these very early VIIB's, at the time of commissioning, had a compass attached to the forward part of the scope housing like the later boats. In the photos of these very early boats, I can't see the compass, but I can't be certain. Does anyone know?
Another odd conning tower feature (that others have pointed out to me - thank you) of these early VIIB boats is a device that is located in the extreme forward tower inside just behind the tower wall and just in front of the sky scope. It is a cylindrical tube similar to the sky periscope housing with a short pipe extension coming upward from the centre. The extension has a 90% fitting, like a pipe elbow joint, pointing to the side that ends with a smaller flexible hose which curves around along the front inside edge of the tower until it meets with a smaller cylinder that is bolted to the inside edge of the tower. I can't tell from the photos what extends from the other side of this smaller cylinder, but I think it might be a small hand held speaking tube. I will post some photos of this device and perhaps someone can identify it and explain its function.
Thanks again to everyone that has helped me, look for my U-45 progress photos in the near future as soon as my camera is operational again. In the meantime, your comments and suggestions are always welcome.
Bill
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Hi Bill
Looking forward to the pictures, a very ambitious project!
Regarding the eagle there is one included in the Special Navy type II A kit, its very nice and if someone is making there kit in a later war configuration you might be able to trade a surplus one.
Even if the practice with the eagle was discontiued at the beginning of the war, I have seen pictures of U6 sporting one in spring 1941 - guess old habbits are hard to kill.
Cheers/Jan
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I need to get a new battery for my digital camera so I can post some progress shots of U-45. In the meantime, please have a look at this photo that shows the "flexible voice tube" equipment that appears on early Type VIIB boat. I scanned this photo from page 247 of "The Armed Forces of WWII" by Andrew Mollo. Does anyone know what the device looks like behind the Commanders head?
Thanks,
Bill
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