Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 576318 times)

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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3360 on: 24 Dec , 2016, 06:24 »
The displacement pressure has established a water level in the saddle tank.  The compensating water outlet only sees the water pressure from the sea water below the ballast tank's established water level.  And this pressure is dependent on depth..
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3361 on: 24 Dec , 2016, 06:32 »
Hello Mr. Tor,


If the expansion pipe outlet is below the water line in the saddle tank, the how can the tank vent through the selector valve to the atmosphere? There is NO path to vent the ballast tank???
If the tank has pressure, in this case deplacement pressure, this pressure forces the residue water thru the open selector valve, the air/gas remains on the top being compressed. As the residue water is drained the water entering the kingstons is partly following the residuewater up thru the selectoripe and overboard. The tankbuoyancy is gone and the submarine sits deeper in the water and eventually sinks (dives).
Tore
« Last Edit: 24 Dec , 2016, 06:48 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3362 on: 24 Dec , 2016, 07:06 »
The displacement pressure has established a water level in the saddle tank.  The compensating water outlet only sees the water pressure from the sea water below the ballast tank's established water level.  And this pressure is dependent on depth..
Don, yes but when you release the displacement pressure via the selector valve there is no counter pressure and the water rises in the tank as you have lost the buoyancy. Loosing buoyancy means the boat sinks deeper and if all the saddletanks have lost their buoyancy it means you loose almost 50 tonnes. If you should do this operation on only one tank you create a surface list and upset the surface trim.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3363 on: 24 Dec , 2016, 07:49 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


The best way to show my point is with a drawing...


We have two drinking glasses forced into a pool of water where both drinking glasses are partially flooded (we now have compressed  air in the drinking glasses).  We put two (2) glass tube in the water with my finger over the top end of each tube; one outside the drinking glass on the left, and one inside the drinking glass on the right. 


Now, I allow the glass tubes to flood (this would be like opening the selector valve).  The results would be that both tubes would flood up to the pool's water level.  The water in the glass tubes came from the pool and there no connection or affect on the air pressure level inside either drinking glass air pressure area.


The water pool pressure acting inside both drinking glass enforces the water level in both scenario. Taking water from below the waterline in the drinking glass on the right changed nothing... With respect to the drinking glasses because the water came from the pool!


See my drawing!


When I inserted the two tubes into the pool of water, the pool's water level increased by the volume of both plugged water tubes. When I allowed the tubes to flood, then the pool water level decreased by the volume of water inside of both tubes. 

Basically, when the selector valve is opened in the U-Boat, the water is coming from the sea because of the open Kingstons.

The U-Boat is not going to decrease the sea's water level when opening the selector valve and allowing the selector pipe to flood...


I hope this all makes sense???


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 24 Dec , 2016, 11:21 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3364 on: 24 Dec , 2016, 11:24 »
Hello Mr. tore,


Please review my updated reply #3363


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3365 on: 24 Dec , 2016, 22:44 »
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night my friends...
Kind regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3366 on: 24 Dec , 2016, 23:40 »
Don
The same to you and all our VIIC friends. My wife  and family think I am crazy sitting here with VIIC questions. Don I think your water glass gives a brilliant demonstration of the problem. Below I have modified your sketch a bit to demonstrate my thougths.
I guess the estimated deplacement pressure in the saddletank is appr. 0,22 atm. overpressure, which is appr. 2,2 m watercolumn. When you put a bended tube into the bottomwater in the tank leaving the other end of the tube in the atmosphere I guess the tankpressure push the water in the tube up to a pressure equilibrium when the watercolumn in the pipe is 2,2m above the sea surface, more or less as a watergauge where the watercolumn is showing the pressure in the tank.
If you place the selectorvalve at the top of the saddletank, I believe the outlet is less than 2,2 m above the seasurface. In that case the water in the tank is forced out of the tank allowing the seawater in thru the Kingstons.
May be this explains my theory a bit better.
Tore
« Last Edit: 25 Dec , 2016, 00:09 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3367 on: 25 Dec , 2016, 02:47 »
Don.
I guess I am going crazy ( just too old), my watergauge theory is all wrong, eliminating the pipe watercolumn in the sea. I must confess your system works and the matter is solved, thanks to your persistent stamina. The selectorvalve can have the outlet to the sea under the casingdeck and the outlet indicated on Simons image is most probably the selectorvalve outlets.
Sorry about the confusion.
Tore

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3368 on: 25 Dec , 2016, 17:44 »
Tore, in the British Report on U-570 on page 36 on the H.P. Air Lines (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570/U-570BritishReport.htm). Do you think they still used copper on the late war U-Boats?

"2.  The working pressure is 205 atms. and the air line is made of copper, external diameter 11/16 in., internal diameter 7/17 in."

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3369 on: 25 Dec , 2016, 21:55 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Not a problem as Maciek would say...  We all are getting older! However, I keep telling my wife Maureen that "I'm 17 going on 76"...  I just don't recognize that old person when I look into a mirror!


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3370 on: 26 Dec , 2016, 12:13 »

This images has been resized. Click to view original image.

Hi Tore, Don & Maciek.

I know must of the openings above the exhaust maniford, but what is the Yellow opening?

White = Vent valves Opening - Main ballast/Reserve fuel oil tanks.
Orange = Main Exhaust Gas Blow Valve.
Green = HP air line.
Blue = Grease Distributors Opening.
Red = Exhaust Gas Flap Valve, Outboard Opening
Yellow = ??

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3371 on: 26 Dec , 2016, 15:12 »

Hi Simon

I know must of the openings above the exhaust maniford, but what is the Yellow opening?

White = Vent valves Opening - Main ballast/Reserve fuel oil tanks.
Orange = Main Exhaust Gas Blow Valve.
Green = HP air line.
Blue = Grease Distributors Opening.
Red = Exhaust Gas Flap Valve, Outboard Opening
Yellow = ??


The yellow opening is the HP line hull valve for the air bank 2 (two flasks above the diesel engine assembly patch).
I'm not sure about green opening - the valve handle looks like the valve used in the oxygen installation.


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Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3372 on: 26 Dec , 2016, 16:05 »
Hello Maciek and Simon,


White - Is this the beveled gear assembly that activates the dual vent valves above the pressure hull; the ones that vents the residual trapped air in the main ballast/reserve fuel oil tanks (FBT 2) port and starboard side?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 26 Dec , 2016, 16:08 by Don Prince »
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3373 on: 26 Dec , 2016, 16:10 »

Hi Don,

White - Is this the beveled gear assembly that activates the dual vent valves above the pressure hull; the ones that vents the residual trapped air in the main ballast/reserve fuel oil tanks (FBT 2) port and starboard side?


Right you are, Don!


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Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3374 on: 26 Dec , 2016, 16:29 »
Also here is a image of what I believe are the grease selectors in U-505 that didn't get covered with white paint like in U-995...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD