Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 595763 times)

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Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2085 on: 07 Aug , 2014, 16:49 »
I built a 1/32 model of U-96 and decided the Laughing Sawfish was a green color based on the following article by Dougie Martindale...

http://amp.rokket.biz/docs/laughing_sawfish.pdf



Don, I've read the article in january and opted for black :D


The lime green metal sawfish pennant in the article is pretty funny because they think so much about the color that they don't realize those 2 pennants are not identical but they say it is the one of U 96.
Look at the rear fin to body, at the eye, at the mouth and the lenght of the "saw". A completely different thing.




Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2086 on: 07 Aug , 2014, 23:42 »
Mark.
As you probably know the square with a cross is the marking for the hatch to the emergency ballasttank blowing and the circle with a cross is the external emergency air supply to the ventilationsystem inside the boat. The hatches were made for easy access for divers to the connections inside the casing. Like the system for valve handles and wheels having different shapes for easy identification in bad light, I assume the marking symbols were made raised.
I was a scubadiver for many years and I remember how the colours disappeared even at small depths and the red was first to be eliminated , blue the last, possibly because of the wavelenghts. I was told that nature used less energy to produce red colour hence as a camouflage many fishes were exotic red on the surface only to become black ( which required more energy to make) at modest depth. To make the identification red for divers at depth below say 8-10 meters seems strange to me as you don`t see the red, unless you have a torch of course. ;D
Tore

Offline VIC20

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2087 on: 08 Aug , 2014, 00:20 »
That's an interesting point. I guess some clerk decided that because of other regulations.

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2088 on: 10 Aug , 2014, 01:25 »
Don
Q tank, your Skizzenbuch.
I guess your description of the Q tank system might be a bit confusing. Then port and starboard Q have a combined common blowing and venting pipe which is  drawn at both plate 7 and 17. The boardvalve h on plate 7 is the same as boardvalve f at plate 17.  The hullvalves h and f are the hullvalves for blowing as well as venting.The common main blowingvalve is controlled by the red wheel at stb side and the common main ventvalve is on the port side ending in a muffler under the steelcabinet. See my sketch below.
Tore
« Last Edit: 10 Aug , 2014, 01:46 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2089 on: 10 Aug , 2014, 21:49 »
Thank you Mr. Tore,


That is exactly what I need is someone with a close eye for my mistakes and not making a good point.  I have have added a page with your well designed illustration and comments.


As I look at Plate 7 the hull valves are labeled (h).  On Plate 17, I believe the hull valves are labeled ( i ) and not (f)?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2090 on: 10 Aug , 2014, 22:13 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I have a question about the Blowing Valve...  The one indicated on your drawing has another valve a little down and to the right (not Labeled)?  Is that unmarked valve the actual Blowing Valve?


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2091 on: 10 Aug , 2014, 23:58 »
Don.
 The valve nominated f by me could very well be an i . The small valve wheel down right of the common blowing valve has nothing to do with the Q common blowing valve. The blowing air goes directly via the common blowingvalve into the common Q venting/ blowing crossoverline and has only the hullvalves of the Q port and stb. as a possible separate control valve.
Tore
« Last Edit: 11 Aug , 2014, 02:44 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2092 on: 11 Aug , 2014, 00:40 »
Don. Skizzenbuch.
Ballast tanks page 230. I guess you are mixing up MBTs 1 and 5 with bow and stern buoyancy tanks. MBT 1 and 5 are both belonging to the main ballast system and plays an important role int the diving procedure. The bow and stern buoyancy tanks are above the surfaced waterline and do not belong to the ballastsystem but is primarily used for reducing the pitching on the surface in an effort (together with the flare of the Atlantic bow) to reduce the seaoverflow and spray during surfacecruising. 
The standard diving procedure for a VIIC ( not crashdive) would be: open vents for MBT 5, 2 and 4 port and stb.( when in ballastconfiguration) and 3. Then you get your bow down angle about 7-8 degrees ( using the hydroplanes as well), then after  say 4-6 seconds open the vent for MBT1. You should aim to have the tower wind deflector at the seasurface simontaneously with the stern which would give you an 7-8 degrees bow down angle, sufficient to have enough water above the propellers and aft hydroplanes for max efficiency, thus MBT 1 and 5 are indeed very important as ballasttanks. Down below is a sketch I made for the correct diving procedure and a photo I made once from a Shackleton anti submarine plane showing my KNM Kaura ex U 995 in a correct routine diving position 8 degrees bow down.

Tore
« Last Edit: 11 Aug , 2014, 02:39 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2093 on: 11 Aug , 2014, 07:12 »
Don.
Skizzenbuch page 96, cooling water system main engine.
I don`t fully understand the statement: "The coolingwater has two entries per cylinder to effectively maintain the proper operating temperature". Down below is a cross section drawing of the GW dieselengine having for each cylindersection an inlet branch from the common cooling waterpipe along the outboard side of the engine, just as the green pipe on your pipescheme. The green colour indicates the cooling water entering the bottom of each the cylinderjackets, flowing upwards via a cooling waterbend to each  cylindercover having an outlet to a distribution cock with a branch off to the coolingjacket of the exhaustvalve which require only a part of the total coolingwater for each cylinder, the remainder bypasses the exhaustvalve and joins the outlet of the coolingwater for the exhaustvalve before entering the common exhaustmanifold coolingjacket and then the cooling of the groupexhaust valve etc before going overboard as mentioned by you. As this system is based on a pre WW2 technique there are no thermostates, each coolingwater pipe out from the exhaustvalve has a thermometer and the engineers had to adjust the cocks in the system to maintain the correct temperatures.
 A possible confusing part of the scheme is the rather heavily drawn second pipeoutlets from the engine joining the cooling waterbends  over the manifoldflanges, end of the manifold and the bends over the flanges for the groupexhaust coolingcasings. However these pipes are only the venting(deairation) pipes of the system. The intricate deairation is due to the fact that air in the system upset the cooling waterflow and you might get hotspots and possible cracks as a consequence.
Tore
« Last Edit: 11 Aug , 2014, 07:16 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2094 on: 11 Aug , 2014, 18:59 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Again Thank you...


I have corrected the info about MBT 1 and 5...  I thought someone told me that they were not part of the main ballast system.  This was contrary to what I have always understood?  Oh well, I'm back in sync with the ballast system.


As for the water cooling for the Krupp engine, that was just my dumb mistake about 2 lines (I think I may need a new pair of glasses, and probably should have that cataract surgery that I've been putting off for several years!) .. 


Thanks for the corrections


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2095 on: 12 Aug , 2014, 09:24 »
Don.
Just a few minor remarks to your skizzenbuch. You have some remarks to plan 13 coolingwatersystem and  mentioning the various components getting cooling. I should mention the branch off to the propeller shaft packingboxes as well. Via valve c4 they get their cooling. 
On page 47 you are mentioning the various persons at diving station in the controlroom putting the siderudder helmsman up in the conning tower. At battlestation some COs preferred to have the helmsman in the tower however at divingstation he usually was placed in the controlroom together with the hyroplane operators. At diving it is important that the bridge can be cleared for people quickly and normally the CO and lookout rush down in the controlroom. The conningtower is quiet cramped and a helmsman is a bit in the way. At surfacing the CO is normally at the navigation periscope in the controlroom giving his orders to the helmsman prior to surfacing, it gives a better communication to have him at his place in the controlroom. Thus we normally placed the helmsman in the controlroom and only some time during battle station he was in the tower. As I said just minor remarks.
Tore

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2096 on: 12 Aug , 2014, 16:56 »
Thank you Mr. Tore,


I made the appropriate corrections and I can't thank you enough for your help with my Skizzenbuch...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2097 on: 13 Aug , 2014, 00:53 »
Don.
Skizzenbuch fueloil watercompensating.
The simple yet ingenious system of selfregulating seawatercompensating fueltanks might be a bit hard to understand. Basically the system works in the same manner for the internal as the external watercompensated tanks. There are several reasons for using watercompensating. 1. The compensating of weight loss due to the fuelconsumption although the seawater has a higher specific gravity, the weightcompensating being plus or minus is less. 2. The free surface effect is reduced which is important particularly to a submarine. 3. It gives a simple way of transferring the fuel in the system.
The use of the saddle ballasttanks 2 and 4 port and starboard as fueloil tanks require special precautions. The mainventing system has to be blocked and secured shut. This is done by shutting gatevalves and not cumbersome blindflanges in the ventduct between the tanks. The ventduct between the gatevalve and the mainvent has a drain/ventvalve which has to be open. The gatevalve and the drain/ventvalve are operated from the casingdeck. When diving the mainvents for 2 and 4 are open permanently and not shut while being submerged as ordinary ballastventing so you let the seawater fill the ventpipe to the gatevalve, hence the open vent/drainvalve, and the ventduct is compensated and pressure equalized.
As the tanks have a HP blowing, the hullvalves for the blowing are shut and secured to prevent structure damages.
The compensating water pipes goes from the headertank to a small chamber ( about 1,5 % of the tankvolume) at the bottom of the tank., from this chamber goes a short pipe into the tank bottom and an equalizing pipe direct to the sea. The two connections are controlled by a double seated selectorvalve operated from the casing. The valve has only two positions, either to the fueltank or direct to the sea. When in fueltank configuration the Kingstons are shut and the selectorvalve open to the fueltank and thus shut to the sea.
In the ballastank configuration  the gatevalves are open, the drainvalve shut and the main ventvalve operated as an ordinary mainvent valve. The compensating selectorvalve is put in direct connection with the sea and shut to the tank thereby the headertank is equalized when diving and submerged. The HP hull blowingvalves are opened and secured. In this way when blowing the tank air or pressureized water cannot enter into the compensating system via the selector valve. The compensatingpipes ends appr 10 cm lower than the fuel venting pipe intake, acting as a waterdischarge pipe  by fueling described by you. This allows time to stop fueling and thus prevent any fuel entering the compensating watersystem.
I know it became a long story and may be a bit complicated  so I tried to make some sketches as shown below.
Tore
« Last Edit: 13 Aug , 2014, 02:59 by tore »

Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2098 on: 13 Aug , 2014, 08:34 »
Don.
 Further to my post this morning I have made an additional sketch indicating the various valves involved in a fuelconfiguration of the saddletanks. As a matter of interest I made a quick calculation of the weight compensating for the difference between the saddle fueltanks filled up with fuel and empty but compensated with seawater. The total for all 4 tanks would amount to an extra weight of about 6.5 tonnes which then had to be taken out from the regulating tanks, in case of not being watercompensated the loss of weight would have been about 43 tonnes which would have to be pumped into the regulating tanks. With a total regulating tank capacity of 24,6 tonnes this would have been impossible. If you do the same for the internal fueltanks, the total weight increase by seawater compensated tanks would be about 9,2 tonnes totalling with the saddletanks 15,7 tonnes and still possible to compensate with the regulatingtanks but without seawatercompensated tanks the loss of weight would have been about 61,5 tonnes, totalling with the saddletanks about 104 tonnes lighter which had to be compensated.  This is of course a play with figures with no realistic use but is just an example of one of the advantages by watercompensating.
Tore
« Last Edit: 13 Aug , 2014, 09:07 by tore »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #2099 on: 13 Aug , 2014, 23:26 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


Thanks again....  You sure are a wealth of knowledge.  Updating my book..


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD