Author Topic: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details  (Read 574525 times)

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Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3690 on: 14 May , 2017, 01:43 »
We do have a water separator on the exhaust...


Of course, but the exhaust separator is NOT present on U 995. The connections of the separator on U 995 clearly show that this is water separator on output of the air compressors.


In other words, there should be two different water separators originally, but now, only one is present.

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Maciek
« Last Edit: 14 May , 2017, 01:45 by SnakeDoc »

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3691 on: 14 May , 2017, 01:52 »
Hi Maciek,


Don't these photos look the same?


Regards,
Don_

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Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3692 on: 14 May , 2017, 01:59 »
Don't these photos look the same?
In my opinion, the exhaust separator on U 570 photo is closer to the boat's centerline, while the HP air separator on U 570 is just at the hull.
I think that there is some space visible between the hull and exhaust separator on U 570.


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Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3693 on: 14 May , 2017, 02:05 »
Does this photo help with the space issue?
A man's got to know his limitations...
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Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3694 on: 14 May , 2017, 02:14 »
Does this photo help with the space issue?


Yes, this photo presents a little different angle view.
However, as I said before, the line connections suggest clearly that is HP compressed air separator.


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Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3695 on: 14 May , 2017, 02:21 »
Hi Maciek,


The only thing that bothers me is that the Wilhelm Bauer Type XXI has that device in place of the original Bold. It does not in any way look like the SSE Mark 2 or the SSE Mark 4.


The device in U-995 does not look to have the ability to swing open like the Mark 2, nor does it have the ability to hinge open like the Mark 4 because of the pipe and the segment shaft to the interlock.


Mr. Tore cold resolve the question about the junkers compressor...
*********************************************************************
Mr. Tore - do you remember if the Junkers air compressor was ever used on U-995?
*********************************************************************


If the Junkers compressor was used by the Norwegians, then changes were made during the Museum renovation; But what changes?


See the 3 images for a comparison...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3696 on: 14 May , 2017, 08:44 »

Hi Don,

The only thing that bothers me is that the Wilhelm Bauer Type XXI has that device in place of the original Bold. It does not in any way look like the SSE Mark 2 or the SSE Mark 4.


In my opinion, in case of Wilhelm Bauer the matter is clear: the war-time bold ejector was replaced with post-war SSE. Where could they put the new ejector? In the place of the old one.


I didn't say that it looks like SSE MK 2 or MK 4, I said it looks slightly similar to the MK 4.


At first, in my opinion, the ejector on Wilhelm Bauer is the same type (or maybe not of the same type but the same design) as ejector installed in place of the Junkers exhaust valve on U 995.
Here is the comparison:





1. shaft (for opening the external flap)
2. gear for driving interlock (to prevent opening the internal flap when external flap is opened and vice-versa)
3. shaft for driving interlock
4. blanked connection
5. line connection for flooding/draining the ejector
6. the hinge
7. the shaft for opening internal flap




I'm not sure if you agree that these are the same devices or not?

The device in U-995 does not look to have the ability to swing open like the Mark 2, nor does it have the ability to hinge open like the Mark 4 because of the pipe and the segment shaft to the interlock.

OK, this is how it supposed to work (according to me, at least):
The shaft (1) driven by hand-lever is for opening the external flap. The flap is opening against the sea pressure.
The flap is interlocked (by means of the gear 2 and shaft 3) with internal flap, to prevent opening both flaps at the same time (similarly as in case of the torpedo tubes).
To open the external flap (with charge loaded into the ejector), the pressure inside the ejector has to be equalized with external sea pressure. Otherwise, the sea pressure forces the external flap (opening outwards) to be closed. The equalization is done by means of the line (5), which makes possible to flood the ejector with external sea water (similarly as in case of torpedo tubes).
When charge was ejected, the external flap is closed and the ejector can be drained by the same line (5).
The piping on U 995 is missing, however on Wilhelm Bauer the piping seems to be complete: there is visible line branching to small hull valve and the branch to drain/vent the ejector.

And the most important thing: how the internal flap was opened (to load anything into ejector)?


I think that internal flap (or breech) was opened similar to the S.S.E. MK 2, the breech was moved/slid aside horizontal (unlike the MK 4, where the breech is opening downward).





The hand-wheel can drive some kind of dog-catches (as in case of the normal hatches).

Mr. Tore cold resolve the question about the junkers compressor...
*********************************************************************
Mr. Tore - do you remember if the Junkers air compressor was ever used on U-995?
*********************************************************************


If the Junkers compressor was used by the Norwegians, then changes were made during the Museum renovation; But what changes?


The brief history of KMN Kaura:
01.12.1952 - commissioning in Royal Norwegian Navy
1957 - overhauling and modernization
12.1962 - putting into reserve


Removing of the Junkers exhaust could be done by Norwegians in 1957. They could use it before 1957 and could abandon using it after 1957. During the renovation/restoration to the state from May 1945 (in 1971) there would be no sense to install new ejector in place of the Junkers compressor exhaust valve.


In the book U 995 by Eckard Wetzel, on page 144 there is a small photo of the aft torpedo room, taken on 1965, when U 995 was moved to Kiel, before any restoration work. I think that on the photo the present arrangement is visible. I mean that the device in place of Junkers exhaust valve (I assume that it is S.S.E) was present there in 1965.
It supports the assumption that it was installed there during overhaul in 1957.


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Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3697 on: 14 May , 2017, 17:33 »
Hi Maciek,


I am wrong...  It looks like you and Mr. Tore are correct!  When one has so much time invested in a theory, then it's hard to let go.


Please go to this web site and review the posts because it looks like the bold device in U-995 and Wilhelm Bauer is from a Klass 205 U-Boat.


http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=13257.15


See the photos...
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3698 on: 14 May , 2017, 19:44 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


The Bold in U-995 and the Wilhelm Bauer Type XXI may be a Dutch or German design because the original Bold cartridges were very short "like a can of beans" but the newer Bold devices ran a distance and did a burst of bubbles or an explosion (Bang). so they were most likely longer.


They replaced the original bold in the Type XXI (after the war), I don't understand why they didn't replace the Bold in U-995 (unless the older cartridges wouldn't fit or launch in the newer Bold, so they kept both).


FYI (Maciek) - according to documentation I read; they replaced the 2 junkers compressors with e-compressors post war on the Wilhelm Bauer.


Rergards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 14 May , 2017, 19:46 by Don Prince »
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Offline tore

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3699 on: 15 May , 2017, 00:37 »
Don and Maciek.
Sorry on my place in the world remote in the Norwegian forrests I lost my internet connection for some 24 hours. I am back and can answer the easiest question first, we used the Junker in my time, but it was very nosiy and needed frequent overhauls like cleaning of carbon deposites from the diesel pistons to prevent unballance. We definitely preferred the E-compressor. After I left the Kaura she had a major overhaul and I guess they the installed quite a few gadgets like the balkongeraet, a few US electronic devices which I assume was related to submarine traffic detection/registration etc. I have only seen these devices by photos and can not comment further on that. It could very well be they removed the Junker. My point is, I fully support Macieks theory, after my time a lot has been changed on ex.U 995 since my time onboard was terminated in 1954.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3700 on: 15 May , 2017, 14:11 »

Hi Don,

I am wrong...  It looks like you and Mr. Tore are correct!  When one has so much time invested in a theory, then it's hard to let go.

Please go to this web site and review the posts because it looks like the bold device in U-995 and Wilhelm Bauer is from a Klass 205 U-Boat.

http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=13257.15

See the photos...


Nice photos. Indeed, they were taken in the Klasse 205mod U-Boat. However, this ejector is a different type than the ejectors from Wilhelm Bauer and U 995. Generally, the shaft for opening the external flap is very close to the ejector tube (on Wilhelm Bauer and U 995 it is a little more distant from the tube, to accommodate the interlock gearing).
The interlock is realized in a different way: the handle of the shaft for opening the external flap is removable. It can be placed at the shaft (to open the flap) only when the breech doors are in close position.


By the way, I must correct myself:

1. shaft (for opening the external flap)
2. gear for driving interlock (to prevent opening the internal flap when external flap is opened and vice-versa)
3. shaft for driving interlock
4. blanked connection
5. line connection for flooding/draining the ejector
6. the hinge
7. the shaft for opening internal flap


Of course it should be:
2. gear interlock
3. shaft (driven by breech doors) for interlock


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Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3701 on: 15 May , 2017, 19:31 »
Hello Mr. Tore and Maciek,


It looks like the aft torpedo room in U-995 is presently in a modified state where the Junkers compressor was not usable because of the removal of the junkers exhaust system. If the junkers compressor were usable, then the setup would be similar to the one as seen in U-570.


They installed a different version of the bold launcher in U-995. Do we know if there was an issue with the newer bold decoys and the older bold launcher. I don't believe there is an issue of horizontal launch Vs vertical because the Wilhelm Bauer does a horizontal launch.


I will search the internet to see if I can find a layout for the junkers compressor in a type VII...


Regards,
Don_
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3702 on: 19 May , 2017, 18:25 »
Hi Maciek,


Can you copy the photo form the U 995 book.. Or do you have another of the same era?
On the Bold device, I see how it gets flooded and drained, but how does the internal canister get launched?
On the Old Bold Launcher it looks like a piston on a guide/limit shaft was used and driven by compressed air?

Regards,
Don_.
« Last Edit: 19 May , 2017, 23:56 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3703 on: 22 May , 2017, 01:04 »
Hello Mr. Tore,


I believe that U-995 (Kaura) a Type VII C/41 had the same aft torpedo room Junkers exhaust configuration as U-570 a Type VII C. Then in 1957 the modernization disabled the Junkers compressor and they installed the second Bold Ejector.


I understand the functionality of the original side launch ejector with the piston and the attached long rod to create the end point for ejection.  This is the same design as the torpedo launch piston groves which only allow the piston to travel so far down the tube.


I don't quite fully understand the functionality of the vertical launch ejector because it does not have the original launchers piston with a capture rod which also prevented the launchers gases from escaping to the surface and giving up the U-Boat's location.


Since this device was installed in 1957 (Peacetime), could it be that they just use compressed air to launch a distress signal and they really don't care about the launch gases reaching the surface?


At this point, I really don't think it matters because the 1957 renovation and modernization was never part of the original German wartime U-Boat Type VII C, or the Type VII C/41!

Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 22 May , 2017, 22:06 by Don Prince »
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Offline Don Prince

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Re: Tores mailbox VIIC and VIIC/41 operation and technical details
« Reply #3704 on: 23 May , 2017, 00:28 »
Hello Mr. Tore, Maciek, and All,


I have updated Skizzenbuch and placed the latest version into my Dropbox folder...  I decided only to cover fully the Original German WWII version of the BOLD ejector, and not the version that was installed into U-995 (Kaura) in 1957. Besides, the air and drain lines have been cut-off so we can't see where they went and to what they are connected to, so it would only be guessing on our part. I don't want guesses in Skizzenbuch, only the facts and correct information...


Kind Regards,
Don
A man's got to know his limitations...
Harry Callahan, SFPD