Author Topic: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing  (Read 514580 times)

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Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1230 on: 27 Feb , 2014, 15:33 »
Hi Tore

Was thinking about different ways to gear the Schnorchel position indicator. What do you think about this idea?





Offline tore

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1231 on: 28 Feb , 2014, 00:24 »
Simon.
It works but I am afraid it is an expensive way of doing it and requires complicated milling. At the end of WW2 I believe the germans would go for a simpler solution. I have been pondering upon this detail further and further studies of the bad photo of the internal indicator rod does not reveal any threads which is needed for a travelling pointernut. Thus I assume the rotating rod theory even if would be a technical good solution might be abandoned. :-[ Back to the drawingboard. I am reintroducing my first idea, teleflex, as used for the mechanical indicators of the hydroplanes. It is relatively simple and cheap. On the sketch below you see it is some strange bends which might support the theory. At the  rod connectingpoint it got to be a 90 degrees angleguide though in order to have a vertical pull/ push movement of the rod. These guides are standard teleflex equipment. By studying the teleflex transmission of the hydroplane indicators we might find a possible solution for the relative simple schnorchel indicator. ;)
Tore

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1232 on: 28 Feb , 2014, 01:09 »
Here are all the different version of the 3.7cm Flak M42U found on Type VIIC's

3.7cm Flak M42U

The 3.7cm Flak M42U was the marine version of the 3.7cm Flak used by the Kriegsmarine on Type VII and Type IX U-boats. The improvement was base on the earlier 3.7cm Flak SK C/30 developed by Rheinmetall. The 3.7cm Flak M42U used several types of mounts and entered service in autumn 1943.

LM 42U Mount
The LM 42U mount was developed specifically for the 3.7cm Flak M42U. It was man by a 3 man crew, with a fourth man, the loader.

LM 43U Mount
The LM 43U mount was the final deign of mount used on U-boats. It further improvement on the LM 42U. The LM 43U was only known to be installed on three U-boats (U-1171, U-1305 and U-1306).

DLM 42U Mount
The twin mount was base on the  design, in which the 3.7cm Flak M42U guns were mounted side by side.


Fig. 1. A Single 3.7cm Flak M42U gun on the LM 42U mount.


Fig. 2. A Single 3.7cm Flak M42U gun on the LM 43U mount.


Fig. 3. A Twin 3.7cm Flak M42U guns on the DLM 42U mount.

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1233 on: 28 Feb , 2014, 16:07 »
I don't know anything about this specifically, so I can only comment in general, which might be useless!

Some related info. The US Gatos were well engineered. Modern volunteers rebuilt a periscope on the Cobia a few years ago. They couldn't understand some of the design and thought it was over-engineered. UNTIL they went to put it back together, and all the awkward, impossible-ness of the procedure was made easy by the design! The volunteers went "AH! these 1930s + 40s guys knew what they were doing!"

The other bit: it's almost impossible to second guess the past. Why would people do something in a certain way? "of course they wouldn't!" we say, but then we don't have their world view. We don't cover up in the heat, but the people of the 1600s seem to have (from paintings and writings). They thought layers kept them cool, and that the air was filled with disease. Different logic. So on one hand these guys might not have put effort into complex gearing, but on the other, it might have seemed perfectly natural, even with limited resources. After all, Germany was putting  lot of effort into almost science fiction weapons, even though it was too late...

Just some thoughts.
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Offline tore

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1234 on: 01 Mar , 2014, 00:31 »
Very wise words. When we try to figure out why a VIIC was equipped like this or that, we often forget the situation in Germany the last years of WW2. The VIIC technology is pretty much from the 1920 and 1930 years. In contradiction to f.i. the RN which in the 30 ties had their subs equipped with telemotor operated vents and hydroplanes, the germans still used mechanical transmission, rods and links.The VIIC was the workhorse based on wellproven prewar technology. I remember in 1943-1944 as a boy in an occupied country, the  germans where desperate in getting rawmaterial, they confiscated all our copper- and nickelcoins, all the brass items on subwaycars,trams and railwaycars like handles, supportrods, ashtrays etc. The brass and nickel items were remelted as a substitute we got steel and zinc coins, wooden supportrods etc. After Stalingrad, end 42 beginning 43, the families had to supply the German military with their private rubberboots, blankets and rucksacs. In the years of the schnorchel installation, the shipyards and factories were heavily bombed and destroyed, making it pretty difficult to get the proper parts and material for the conversion. It is easy to forget the prevailing circumstances when you wonder why the German did it the way they did and why they did not use copper, bronze and brass in the piping.
Tore 

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1235 on: 01 Mar , 2014, 08:01 »
Simon.
I have spent some time studying the possible solution to the Schnorchelmast indicator. The drawings available does not give much information, but they indicates rodlink transmission even if some are overdimensioned. I have checked the indicator for the ballast vents and the Kingstons on U 995, to my astonishment you could not see any threads on indicator spindles, I guess they might be heavily painted so the threads do not show up on a bad photo.  However I guess for the indicator travel shown on the photo a direct 90 degrees mast movement at the rooth of the mast  hardly gives a direct link transmission sufficient turning of  the spindle to create  such travel.If we stick to the rotating theory, we have to amplify the turns from 90 degrees to at least 2 or 3 x 360 degrees. At a direct pull push movement it would be possible to obtain the adequat movement I guess. These are just some thougths around the problems to be solved.  May be we should wait and see if some better documentation pops up before ending up with the final solution.
Tore
« Last Edit: 01 Mar , 2014, 09:17 by tore »

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1236 on: 02 Mar , 2014, 00:16 »
Hi Tore

I was taking another look at the Schnorchel mast indicator and I noted that a ΒΌ of the circumference of the Schnorchel pipe was the same amount of movement for the indicated bar (light blue) so this made me think:
 
When the Schnorchel mast is down the Green bar (which is Attached to the Schnorchel pipe) is moved forward, pushing a cable (purple) forward that forces the indicated arrow down.
When the Schnorchel mast is up, the green bar is pull back, pulling the cable (purple) back and pulling the indicated arrow back up.
 
The cable (purple) would be fed into a bend of a pipe to stop the cable creasing.

What do you think?


Down


Up
« Last Edit: 02 Mar , 2014, 00:18 by NZSnowman »

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1237 on: 02 Mar , 2014, 02:15 »
Simon.
This was my first idea ( teleflex) as well, and I believe you could even get the guide and other components as a standard from teleflex as used on the hydroplanes mechanical indicators. There is one problem as the teleflex cable runs in a sleeve which is not pressure / waterthight it creates a problem for the pressurehull stuffingbox and the indicator rod has to end outside the pressurehull to overcome this problem. By that you introduce  a higher resistance which I am not sure a teleflex pushmovement can overcome.
Tore

Offline Rokket

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1238 on: 03 Mar , 2014, 04:54 »
Tore - wow, I wish I could take you out for a beer! You lived it. Thanks so much for sharing with us!
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Offline tore

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1239 on: 03 Mar , 2014, 23:32 »
Simon.
Schnorchel mast indicator.
I guess we should find the simplest solution which would be pull/push rods. Below I have indicated such a system. I have estimated the vertical movement of the indicator to be some 15-20 cm (I am not sure), this would require the connection point to the mast to be close to the root of the mast as the rodlink should be as straight as possible. Thus the hullpassage would be fairly close to the fulcrum of the mast. Unfortunately this is slightly different from what is indicated on the systemsketch however there are several other details on the sketch which are not correct as well. On the U 995 photo the indicator rod enters the hull (controlroom) in the middle between frame 60 and 61 as far as I can see and I don`t know how this matches the position of the fulcrum, you have probably some details on this. This is my best assumption for you drawing of the indicator right now. ;)
Tore
« Last Edit: 03 Mar , 2014, 23:39 by tore »

Offline falo

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1240 on: 03 Mar , 2014, 23:50 »

Don't know if this technical drawing is already on your HD. Grabbed this drawing from an unknown internet site years ago. Just remembering that the attached snorkel-drawings are for a type nine boat.

Falo

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1241 on: 04 Mar , 2014, 00:13 »
Falo.
It is a very good drawing, but as you say it is showing the IX system which is different from the VIICs. Main difference are the cranks downwards and the indicator (rotating) and possibly the tranmission are different .
Tore

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1242 on: 04 Mar , 2014, 00:43 »
Simon.
Schnorchel mast indicator.
I guess we should find the simplest solution which would be pull/push rods. Below I have indicated such a system. I have estimated the vertical movement of the indicator to be some 15-20 cm (I am not sure), this would require the connection point to the mast to be close to the root of the mast as the rodlink should be as straight as possible. Thus the hullpassage would be fairly close to the fulcrum of the mast. Unfortunately this is slightly different from what is indicated on the systemsketch however there are several other details on the sketch which are not correct as well. On the U 995 photo the indicator rod enters the hull (controlroom) in the middle between frame 60 and 61 as far as I can see and I don`t know how this matches the position of the fulcrum, you have probably some details on this. This is my best assumption for you drawing of the indicator right now. ;)
Tore

Tore, the pressure hull opening for the Schnorchel mast indicator is a long way from the Schnorchel.

The pressure hull opening for the Schnorchel mast indicator is 645 mm forward of the fulcrum point and 500 mm inboard from the central line of the Schnorchel mast.

Offline tore

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1243 on: 04 Mar , 2014, 01:38 »
Simon, back to the drawingboard ;D
Tore

Offline NZSnowman

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Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
« Reply #1244 on: 04 Mar , 2014, 01:45 »
Simon, back to the drawingboard ;D
Tore

Is it not a bad thing, as it mean that there a lot more room for the Schnorchel mast indicator mechanical under the wooden deck  ;)