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SEA => SUBS: Uboats => TYPE VII => Topic started by: NZSnowman on 06 Jan , 2009, 12:19

Title: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Jan , 2009, 12:19
Hello All

I would to introduce myself. I'm Simon Morris from New Zealand. For the last 10 months I have been drawing a 1:60 scale of a general VIIC/41. Durying this time a few quection pop up about the VIIC/41. I am hope that you guys can help my with a few  :)

Here is my first question.
I am looking for the other none water markings, I have seem to found mark II, III & V. I am looking for mark I & IV. I am thinking they are both on the port side of the boat, but i can not found them in the pictures i have of U-995. Does anyone found where they are?

Hull Marking (2 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ghtymnymh3n

Thanks, Simon

Here are a few of my drawing, they are all PDF

Conning Tower (6.5 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzyigmmljak (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzyigmmljak)
Engine Room (3.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?z2ry2n1dmtq
Motor Room (1.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?l2mgzjmzy2n
Me & Poster (0.7 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zmmzzjyzimo&thumb=6  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 06 Jan , 2009, 12:49
Hi Simon! Welcome to AMP forum.
I just had the look at the drawings, and i must say im impressed.
Looks like you have wast knowledge in that field.
The poster looks superb, and compartments are full of detail.
I love it.
I can see you had put the capstan on the deck, do you have any reference regarding that part? Im struggling like mad trying to find any good shot of the capstan, and so far i wasnt successful.
Hope to see more of your work here. ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 06 Jan , 2009, 14:14
   Hello Simon..We met on U-boat.net..You'll enjoy this forum..Welcome aboard, mate.. !
                                                                                             Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Jan , 2009, 16:35
Hi Siara

Thanks for you comment. I have be watching you build, and wish I had the skills to build one !!!

I have serveral pictures of the capstan on U-955

(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/f6821fdf4aff467b88fc88b3fa516c212g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=hkjnjmblqtf&thumb=5) (http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/ec42cfbcffd053ff9bed6211088dcd4a2g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=1zymxoemmym&thumb=5)

Maybe you can help me, do you have have any pictures of the lower half of the UZO?

Here are 3 new views of my Capstan & Watertight Container I did last night.
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/deb290245fbed8370f1d6aa50d83b9dd2g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=xn2tmvzn5mg&thumb=5) (http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d628d68fa1beec81c3b514dbe72e6e752g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=du0djmmjzdt&thumb=5) (http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1598af12d45e34d55dad45e75b20ab1d2g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=tzmmonjt5yx&thumb=5)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 07 Jan , 2009, 00:47
good stuff!

If Siara has em I'm sure he'll share em. Welcome.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 07 Jan , 2009, 01:08
Thanks Simon! Lovely pics. Thats gonna help great deal.
Heres few pics i have for you:
(http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7066/con8qz4.th.jpg) (http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=con8qz4.jpg)
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/74/con9gf2.th.jpg) (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=con9gf2.jpg)
(http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7633/scan3lq7.th.jpg) (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan3lq7.jpg)
(http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/727/u570photo5lu8.th.jpg) (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u570photo5lu8.jpg)
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/7466/uzo01va7.th.jpg) (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uzo01va7.jpg)
(http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/907/uzo02gu0.th.jpg) (http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uzo02gu0.jpg)

Hope it helps.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2009, 02:28
Thanks Siara they are great  ;D Could not workout what was inside the open hatch on the side of the UZO ??? anyway, unlikely you will see it at 1:60 scale 8)

Updated UZO (65.87 KB)
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/bab0f7df787e1088c113234fb489a2432g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zzzzayyddzg&thumb=5)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 07 Jan , 2009, 02:29
I may be wrong, but not all of them had that opening. I didnt replicate it on my UZO. ;)
Another thing- the column is straight- not conical.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2009, 03:00
I did see that about conical shape, I will fix this before going to bed tonight :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 08 Jan , 2009, 03:17
I know that least some had 2 handles that were "C" shaped (go back to the column and not the base).
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 09 Jan , 2009, 00:43
Hello and welcome Simon.  Your work is very nice!  I look forward to following your build.  If I can help with knowledge I will do so.  Again, welcome!

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Jan , 2009, 20:07
Started adding the revets to the bow of my VIIC/41 base on U-995 :)

(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/663/rivetsbowof3.th.jpg) (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rivetsbowof3.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 11 Jan , 2009, 02:23
Good job Simon. I like it a lot. Good attention to detail. I just compared your bow with my model- its neer identical, apart from GHG array- more sensors in mine.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 11 Jan , 2009, 02:34
Very nice job Simon.  I like the camo.

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 11 Jan , 2009, 09:04
   Since the artwork is of a viic/41 and u-995 in particular..Shouldn't the bow have a "Balcongerat" rather than an "S-Gerat"... ?
                Bill....
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Jan , 2009, 11:25
Hi Bill

Yes you are right. I am 99.99% sure that no VIIC/41 have both on at the same time. I have all the different war time sensors on different layers in the drawing. I am able to turn them on or off, this time I had the Balcongerat off & the S-Gerat on. I am mainly basing my drawing from U-1105 & U-995, however, I am thinking about adding all the main sensors to it, just to show poeple all the different sensors on onboard  :)

♦ I am going to add the FuMO-61 Hohentwiel-U (Radar) and FuMO-35 Athos (Radar Warning Receiver) on to my VIIC/41 but I believe that the only Type VII with both on at the same time was U-249  ???
♦ Also U-1105 was cover in Alberich, I don't want to cover my boat in this as I don't want to cover all the detail of the hull. I may put it in a different layer in the drawing.
♦ I want to add Tarnmatte (Radar absorbent material) to the Schnorchel but I unsure how many VIIC/41 had this ???
♦ I have also added gas bottles for the FuMT 30 Aphrodite (Radar decoy), it seen that many Type VII carry these onboard at the end of the war but again I am unsure if any VIIC/41 carry them ???
♦ I also believe all the late war VIIC/41 that had the Balcongerat installed from the beginning did not have the GHG installed and the UT transducers (underwater telegraphy) are also missing ???

(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/185/sensorsgu7.th.jpg) (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sensorsgu7.jpg)

Hi Siara, here that I learn about the revets base on U-995.
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3259/rivetsbowvh8.th.jpg) (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rivetsbowvh8.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 11 Jan , 2009, 12:19
And heres the side shot of mine U-552
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9416/rivetspg9.jpg)
Looks like type VII-s had more doublers.

Original size image: http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/269/rivetswk2.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/269/rivetswk2.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 11 Jan , 2009, 12:23
    G'day Simon...Not a bad idea showing all the sensors and/or radar equip. Just a thought, though, It wouldn't hurt to have the bits/items color coded with maybe footnotes at the bottom explaining whatever...Of course it's just a thought...Your the artist ! (Your work has been helpful, Thanks !)
                                                                      Cheers/Regards..Bill in the U.S.A.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Jan , 2009, 14:45
Hi Bill
I think your right about the footnotes, just been thinking about a way to display it and making it look good. Have also been thinking about adding a few more u-boats toys  ;D
(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7197/otherthingsae2.th.jpg) (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otherthingsae2.jpg)

Hi Siara
I'm not 100% sure about the VIIC/41 having more doublers, as almost the entire bow of U-995 has been replace so I can not tell how far the doublers extant forward. I have seen some pictures with full length and other pictures the same as your ??? Also it look like this section of hull has also been replace (the red box) so I unsure of spacing of the revets ???
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3723/misshulloi4.th.jpg) (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=misshulloi4.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Jan , 2009, 00:14
Continue working of the bow section of the wooden deck today.

(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1179/woodendeckvl5.th.jpg) (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=woodendeckvl5.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Jan , 2009, 23:54
(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9654/fumo61xq0.th.jpg) (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fumo61xq0.jpg)
Reworked the FuMO-61 today, add more detail to the drawing  :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Jan , 2009, 09:09
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4029/hook3jd1.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5608/hook2oz0.jpg) (http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1985/hook1gp0.jpg)

I have noted in some pictures (I can not remember if they were from models or real) that the three bow Tie Downs (correct term?) were open on the top. The pictures above are from U-995, they are all the same style with a closing hinge on top. Does anyone know if they were
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: rabapla on 15 Jan , 2009, 02:10
that's a spring cleat. ;)

all the time closed, except You push a rope in it.......
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Jan , 2009, 02:20
Thanks rabapla, a spring now all make sense ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Jan , 2009, 22:35
Hi Bill

While working on my VIIC/41 deck today, I noted that some of the high pressure air piping looked incorrect. So I did some researched and use the U-570 Schematic drawings. Using plates 11, 16 and 32. I have came up with a updated layout.

(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/47/pipe2ay7.th.jpg) (http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pipe2ay7.jpg)

Plate 11 http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm)
Plate 16 http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm  (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm)
Plate 32 http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate32.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate32.htm)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr.Mox on 16 Jan , 2009, 02:32
This is really-really cool, I plan on scratching my inner hull, and this is just perfect!

Its just miss the location of the cunning tower ?

Cheers/Jan
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Jan , 2009, 03:52
(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5301/deck2tx9.th.jpg) (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deck2tx9.jpg)
Conning tower with no deck.

(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4637/deck1ad6.th.jpg) (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deck1ad6.jpg)
Conning tower, with deck and no hatch cover.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr.Mox on 16 Jan , 2009, 04:00
Nice work

Since english isnt my native language please forgive me, but I have the impression that conning tower is the presurrized part of the tower, sail, fairwater - or whatever its called??
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: rabapla on 16 Jan , 2009, 04:59
isn't this called the "attack room", position of commander during attack?
it's an extension of the pressure hull (as You did on your beautifull subs"

I think conning tower, sail, fairwater, office and kiosque (for the gallophilic) are all the same.

So You miss the position of the attack room above the "Zentrale"...........
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 16 Jan , 2009, 06:25
Nice work

Since english isnt my native language please forgive me, but I have the impression that conning tower is the presurrized part of the tower, sail, fairwater - or whatever its called??
              Mr. Mox...Your english is better than mine.......And i speak it every day !
                                                                                 Bill in the U.S.A.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 16 Jan , 2009, 06:27
(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5301/deck2tx9.th.jpg) (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deck2tx9.jpg)
Conning tower with no deck.

(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4637/deck1ad6.th.jpg) (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deck1ad6.jpg)
Conning tower, with deck and no hatch cover.
                      Many thanks, once again ,Simon ..
                                                    Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 16 Jan , 2009, 14:10
isn't this called the "attack room", position of commander during attack?
it's an extension of the pressure hull

Yes- you can look it up here Simon: http://u-552.blogspot.com/2008/04/conning-tower-bottom-part.html (http://u-552.blogspot.com/2008/04/conning-tower-bottom-part.html)

Hope it helps. ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Jan , 2009, 20:30
Hi Mr.Mox. Here a new drawing with a outline of the pressure hull in the Conning tower. Also I have update the Diesel air inlet trunk line today ;D

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6204/deck6zw7.th.jpg) (http://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deck6zw7.jpg)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: RIP on 17 Jan , 2009, 02:42
Wow, Your model looks great!
Now You just need too "print" it on resin 3D-printing machine and get a beutyfull U-boot.
I would like too ask about few things - I suspect it's a 3D model - is it? What software is Your model made in - AutoCAD, 3D Studio, or something diffrent? What kind of technical drawing reference do You have?

Thank You,
Piotr.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Jan , 2009, 12:14
The drawing is in 2D only. I am using CorelDraw X4. At the moment there are 70 different layers (for example I are display the boat with or without deck hatches
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 17 Jan , 2009, 12:55
The drawing is in 2D only. I am using CorelDraw X4. At the moment there are 70 different layers (for example I are display the boat with or without deck hatches
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr.Mox on 17 Jan , 2009, 12:57
Hi Mr.Mox. Here a new drawing with a outline of the pressure hull in the Conning tower. Also I have update the Diesel air inlet trunk line today ;D


Perfect ! nice work!

Cheers/Jan
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: RIP on 17 Jan , 2009, 13:37
The drawing is in 2D only. I am using CorelDraw X4. At the moment there are 70 different layers (for example I are display the boat with or without deck hatches – so you can view that is under the hatches etc...) and there are over 109,000 objects in the drawing.

So my first impression looking Your plates was right - Corel. Next I thought "It can be 3D work" but I was wrong. If You can use some 3D soft i would encourage You to make a solid model basing Your Corel work - I can see You have both great skill and time ;)
I'm using Corel sometimes to color architecture designs and every work over 30,000-40,000 objects is killing me - I'm realy impressed with all the details!
BTW - Can you optimize pictures in some way (just save them as a jpg files), Corel pdf files work pretty slow.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Jan , 2009, 20:26
Hi RIP. I have thought about doing it in 3D. I have only played around with
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 18 Jan , 2009, 05:51
Simon, your work is beautiful!  If you ever considering selling a set of your graphic drawing I would fork over the money!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Jan , 2009, 10:11
Yes - I have only just recently started to think about selling the file of the poster. If I decide to sell the poster, I will only sell it after it 100% finish. However, if people do not want to pay for a poster. I am planning to release for free, a full set of black and white lines plans for the VIIC base on my drawing and all the other plans I have ;D

I have also been thinking I could customize the drawing to any Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr.Mox on 18 Jan , 2009, 12:33
As much as i like the colouring, I would opt for a more technical sample that are more intended on scratching a inner hull and other details. So black and white - maybe with measurement.

But its a nice poster and it may find a audiece - I dont have wallspace for it though.

Cheers/Jan
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Jan , 2009, 12:54
Hi Mr Mox. Your right, about a clean, black & white drawing being more useful for modelling. I
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Jan , 2009, 01:52
Does anyone know that these are for on the bow ??? I have seen them on many boats.

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2313/bowje3.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: rabapla on 19 Jan , 2009, 03:45
most often the unused attachment points for the net cutter
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr.Mox on 19 Jan , 2009, 04:37
most often the unused attachment points for the net cutter

Gotta agree on this, You can see that further front is 2 smaller ones. Seems the holes in the biggest aft have been welded shut at some point.

Cheers/jan
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Jan , 2009, 11:07
Thanks guys for the information. This would explain why I was not seeing them in the late-war boats. Thanks again!!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Jan , 2009, 12:42
I have located the deck vent for the Bow Driving Tank and the Stern main buoyancy tank but I can't found the deck vent for Stern Driving Tank. Do it have a deck vent? I don't have any picture of the stern to check this and I can
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 19 Jan , 2009, 13:19
That may help:
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5035/u570dtplate28vs9.th.jpg) (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u570dtplate28vs9.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Jan , 2009, 13:50
Thanks Siara. I have this already. This is what makes me believe that there is a missing vent on all the plans I have. If you look closely that all three valves, they all go to the deck. Both the Bow Driving and Stern main buoyancy tanks have deck vents, but where is the Stern Driving Tank deck vent? Surely not all the plans could be wrong ???

(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/9125/ventszd7.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 19 Jan , 2009, 15:40
Simon- this is what im thinking you are after:
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/985/u2031bi7.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Jan , 2009, 22:15
Hi Siara, thanks for the help but no, the vent in the picture is for the Stern main buoyancy tanks between frame numbers -1 and -2, the Stern Driving Tank is between frame numbers -10 and -11. This missing vent should be approximately 2.5 m from the end of the stern.

After looking at all my plans again I am starting to think that the Stern Driving Tank was only found on the early U-boats like U-570. By about mid war they have removed the Stern Driving Tank and just made the Stern main buoyancy tanks larger.

In the plans I have for the original form of the Type VII, VIIB and the very early VIIC, the Stern main buoyancy tanks are smaller than the later VIIC. I also see that some of the plans for the late war VIIC/41 have
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Jan , 2009, 01:54
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4341/unknown20ne2.th.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=unknown20ne2.jpg)(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3758/u558xm9.th.jpg) (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u558xm9.jpg)

(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2575/rst994003xp6.th.jpg) (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rst994003xp6.jpg)(http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/1061/rst993001bz4.th.jpg) (http://img364.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rst993001bz4.jpg)

TBC...

Hi Siara. I was just wondering how many cleat did you found on the deck? I have only located the same three cleats (marked in red below) that you show in your pictures. Did you found any more? Thanks Simon.

(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8018/cleat3ee5.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 21 Jan , 2009, 02:02
Some boats had extra set of cleats as seen on the first picture on the side of the conning tower. between front, and back sets of railings.
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6/unknown20ne2jj5.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Jan , 2009, 02:17
Because devil is in detail....
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1456/u4041ol5.th.jpg) (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u4041ol5.jpg)

(http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/6934/rst995001kw1.th.jpg) (http://img56.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rst995001kw1.jpg)
(http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/2199/rst995003cu8.th.jpg) (http://img56.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rst995003cu8.jpg)

TBC... ;)

Thanks Siara, great infromation again ;D Do you know what these plates are for? Are they diesel or water inlets ???

(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7458/new3pd1.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 21 Jan , 2009, 02:39
I dont know what these things were there for, but i do know- these are not simetrical. If you look closely at the shots, you can see that the one on the port side is slightly protruding forward. Since i have corrected the placing of these parts on my model.
(http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1214/jhffb5.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Jan , 2009, 03:19
Thanks again ;D I think I have seen them also on the late-war u-boat like the VIIC/41's. They look to small to be diesel inlets and I believe the water tanks were all in the bow section of the boat, so unlike they would put an inlet here on the stern section. I wonder that they are for ??? Hate the idea of not know :(
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Jan , 2009, 14:27
Antislip strips.
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9928/asstrips002uu8.jpg)
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2783/asstrips005xo0.jpg)

TBC...

Hi Siara.
During your research on the anti-slip strips, did you found that the anti-slip strips were a narrow plate with a double row of bolts? Thanks, Simon

PS. Siara, that is plate below and right of the capstan, with the funny outline? I seen them on the early Type VII's but not on the late-war VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 22 Jan , 2009, 14:48
During your research on the anti-slip strips, did you found that the anti-slip strips were a narrow plate with a double row of bolts?

Yes- double row studed strips screwed to the deck.
You can just make it out from that shot of U-405:
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3692/u4052zs8.jpg)

Siara, that is plate below and right of the capstan, with the funny outline? I seen them on the early Type VII's but not on the late-war VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Jan , 2009, 15:16
Thanks Siara.

I mean it say "What" not "That" :-[ Do you know what the plate the with funny outline do?

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2615/boatbx7.jpg)
Also...Do you know what this is call? Thanks.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 22 Jan , 2009, 15:39
Do you know what the plate the with funny outline do?

I really dont know. The shape of it gives me ideas- it may be something to do with the capstan. Picture this:
lever is inserted in the slot, and wedged in the recess to release the clutch mechanism on the capstan ratchet? ???

Than theres two more of these slots on the stern of the boat- so i rally dont know. Maybe someone else can shed some light on it?

Also...Do you know what this is call?

Not a clue my friend. But we have so many submarine eggheads here im sure your question will get answered. ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr.Mox on 23 Jan , 2009, 00:23

Also...Do you know what this is call? Thanks.


I know what its called in danish - "klyds" - does that count ?  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Jan , 2009, 01:00
It's damn frustrating to be i this situation - discover a new angle/part and not have full info. I've never noticed it before!
You right- like this little detail here:
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7375/u991gl2.th.jpg) (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u991gl2.jpg) (http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6362/unknown11ic3.th.jpg) (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=unknown11ic3.jpg) (http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6208/plumbing0041mp5.th.jpg) (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing0041mp5.jpg) (http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4957/plumbing007qk1.th.jpg) (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing007qk1.jpg) (http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/8061/plumbing0061oa7.th.jpg) (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing0061oa7.jpg)

Next step- deck fixings.

TBC...

Hi Siara, While working on the under the deck piping today, I came across your two down pipes. They are the main blowing pipes for tanks 2 and 4 :)

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5553/pipe2zs6.th.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pipe2zs6.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/87/pipe1yy8.th.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pipe1yy8.jpg) (http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3585/pipe3bn7.th.jpg) (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pipe3bn7.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 23 Jan , 2009, 01:47
Good job! I always wondered what the pipes were there for. :D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 23 Jan , 2009, 02:25

 Do you know what the plate the with funny outline do?[/quote]

I really dont know. The shape of it gives me ideas- it may be something to do with the capstan. Picture this:
lever is inserted in the slot, and wedged in the recess to release the clutch mechanism on the capstan ratchet? ???

Than theres two more of these slots on the stern of the boat- so i rally dont know. Maybe someone else can shed some light on

Not a clue my friend. But we have so many submarine eggheads here im sure your question will get answered. ;)

[/quote]
    G/day Simon/Siara...I've been puzzled myself over these 3 bits..After looking at many deck photos and drwgs. I think I may have found something...If you look at the General Plan Drawing for VIIC ..The top view shows these 3 pieces...the 2 on the stern are on either side of the spare torpedo stowage..the 1 on the bow is directly in line with the torpedo stowage..If you look at a photo of the crew removing the aft. torpedo you'll see that the rigging is attached to the deck...It's just a "wild guess" but I think these odd looking bits are used for the rigging.
 I hope this is of some help...It sure seems a practicle application....Cheers/Regards..Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Jan , 2009, 11:38
Thanks Siara. I have this already. This is what makes me believe that there is a missing vent on all the plans I have. If you look closely that all three valves, they all go to the deck. Both the Bow Driving and Stern main buoyancy tanks have deck vents, but where is the Stern Driving Tank deck vent? Surely not all the plans could be wrong ???

(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/9125/ventszd7.jpg)

I think I may have found the missing inlet vent for the Stern Driving Tank that is found between frame numbers -10 and -11 :) If you look at all three sterm plans you can make it out. I easiest to see on the VIID plans. Does anyone have any pictures of the very end of the stern, so I can check this?

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3082/vent1ww6.th.gif) (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vent1ww6.gif)

Here are two plans that show the Stern Driving Tank in blue.
(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3291/tank1uh1.th.jpg) (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tank1uh1.jpg) (http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3415/tank3ep6.th.jpg) (http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tank3ep6.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Jan , 2009, 11:45
It's damn frustrating to be i this situation - discover a new angle/part and not have full info. I've never noticed it before!
You right- like this little detail here:
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7375/u991gl2.th.jpg) (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u991gl2.jpg) (http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6362/unknown11ic3.th.jpg) (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=unknown11ic3.jpg) (http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6208/plumbing0041mp5.th.jpg) (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing0041mp5.jpg) (http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4957/plumbing007qk1.th.jpg) (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing007qk1.jpg) (http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/8061/plumbing0061oa7.th.jpg) (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing0061oa7.jpg)

Next step- deck fixings.

TBC...

Hi Siara. Still continuing my research on the under the deck piping, it looks like I came across your other piping this morning. They look like they are part of the oil venting system ;D

(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7531/pipes1vt8.th.gif) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pipes1vt8.gif) (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8486/pipes2ew4.th.gif) (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pipes2ew4.gif)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Jan , 2009, 12:54
Thank you guys for your continuous support! ;)

More details. Not much left to be done.

Some hatches, and steel plates were added to the sides:
(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4645/rst998016uf9.th.jpg) (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rst998016uf9.jpg) (http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1622/rst998014rr6.th.jpg) (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rst998014rr6.jpg) (http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2232/rst9980171az0.th.jpg) (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rst9980171az0.jpg)

TBC....



(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8486/pipes2ew4.th.gif) (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pipes2ew4.gif)
Access hatches for side and top valves (Red) ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 24 Jan , 2009, 14:12
Hi Simon, the drawings are looking very, very nice!  I'll bet it takes some time doing the detail work.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Jan , 2009, 22:06
Hi Simon, the drawings are looking very, very nice!  I'll bet it takes some time doing the detail work.

I have spent approximately 70 hours drawing and researching just for the networks of pipes under the deck ;D I am hoping to have able an full set of working plans in one or two weeks that peolpe can download. The drawing will mapped all the pipes, hatch openings etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Jan , 2009, 03:15
I noted what a few people over the last few weeks have been putting hinges on the deck hatches. So, this morning I decide I should check my deck hatches on my drawing. I noted some of my hatches and hinges did not match. So today I did some research on some good pictures I have of decks of U-249 (VIIC) and U-1023 & U-1109 (VIIC/41). Below this the bow hatch covers layout including hinges and opening side. Arrow point to opening side, flat end of arrow show hinge side. This is possibly the standard layout of the bow hatches on late VIIC and VIIC/41.

(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5347/hatchcoverta8.th.jpg) (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hatchcoverta8.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 27 Jan , 2009, 14:16
I noted what a few people over the last few weeks have been putting hinges on the deck hatches. So, this morning I decide I should check my deck hatches on my drawing. I noted some of my hatches and hinges did not match. So today I did some research on some good pictures I have of decks of U-249 (VIIC) and U-1023 & U-1109 (VIIC/41). Below this the bow hatch covers layout including hinges and opening side. Arrow point to opening side, flat end of arrow show hinge side. This is possibly the standard layout of the bow hatches on late VIIC and VIIC/41.

(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5347/hatchcoverta8.th.jpg) (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hatchcoverta8.jpg)

Nice work on the hatch hinges Simon!  Of course I realize that I placed the hinges on the wrong side of the hatch that is furthest from the bow now. Nooooo!  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Jan , 2009, 16:13
Does anyone know the attachment location on the deck for the Radio Aerial wire to the stern? On U-boat plans they show the wires attaching to just inside the deck edge (A) and all photographs I seen show the wires attaching to the edge of the deck (B). Which is correct?

(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8863/graphic1gc1.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Jan , 2009, 00:38
I have located the deck vent for the Bow Driving Tank and the Stern main buoyancy tank but I can't found the deck vent for Stern Driving Tank. Do it have a deck vent? I don't have any picture of the stern to check this and I can
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 28 Jan , 2009, 12:27
Hi Simon,

Position A for the radio aerial wire. VERY nice drawings!

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Jan , 2009, 17:39
Hi Simon,

Position A for the radio aerial wire. VERY nice drawings!

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks for the information on the position of the radio aerial wire :D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 29 Jan , 2009, 04:29
Really impressive drawing and attitude. I will watch this space closely for further developments!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Jan , 2009, 18:19
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9713/bowfs6.gif)

Does anyone have a picture of this smaller bow hatch on the port side (in red)? Or can anyone confirm if it was hinged (& what way it open) or was it bolted on to the deck ??? Thanks, Simon.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Jan , 2009, 23:56
Hi Siara

I was wondering that length did you make your Grapnels? Also during your research on the Grapnels did you come across how it was fix to the deck? I imagine the grapnels were fixed with wing nuts so they could be quickly and easily remove when needed ???  Thanks, Simon.

Siara,
Some times it's hard to believe to detail you put on a build. It also gives me insperation and ideas for my own build. Keep the pics coming.
Thanks Wildspear!
Ill keep the pics coming as you wish....

Grapnels- i think thats what this thing is called- does anybody know?
...
...
...
(http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/5215/kije3011dd6.th.jpg) (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kije3011dd6.jpg) (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4746/kije3012yg5.th.jpg) (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kije3012yg5.jpg)

TBC...

Hi Siara. Another question about the Grapnels - wood or metal ??? Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 30 Jan , 2009, 03:33
Do you know what the plate the with funny outline do?

I really dont know. The shape of it gives me ideas- it may be something to do with the capstan. Picture this:
lever is inserted in the slot, and wedged in the recess to release the clutch mechanism on the capstan ratchet? ???

Than theres two more of these slots on the stern of the boat- so i rally dont know. Maybe someone else can shed some light on it?

Also...Do you know what this is call?

Not a clue my friend. But we have so many submarine eggheads here im sure your question will get answered. ;)

      ..Still no ideas on what these three plates with the funny outline are ?? (I doubt if they're for a clutch release though !)  Anybody at all ? ANYBODY ??
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Jan , 2009, 10:04
Do you know what the plate the with funny outline do?

I really dont know. The shape of it gives me ideas- it may be something to do with the capstan. Picture this:
lever is inserted in the slot, and wedged in the recess to release the clutch mechanism on the capstan ratchet? ???

Than theres two more of these slots on the stern of the boat- so i rally dont know. Maybe someone else can shed some light on it?

Also...Do you know what this is call?

Not a clue my friend. But we have so many submarine eggheads here im sure your question will get answered. ;)

      ..Still no ideas on what these three plates with the funny outline are ?? (I doubt if they're for a clutch release though !)  Anybody at all ? ANYBODY ??

Hi Bill, I been doing my research on the layouts of the deck & under deck for my drawing for over 3 weeks now. I have looked at a lots of plans & photographs (I have seen many new views of different parts of the deck & learn a heap about deck layout), however, like you Bill, I still have no idea that they are or that they are for. I have never them on any late war VIIC or any VIIC/41, unless they are under the deck, (however, are no hatches in these areas), I have never seen a picture of them being used. I will continue doing my research on the deck, and maybe something will turn up. I am hoping to have layout plan ready for people to have a look at by the end of next week of all the things I have learn during my research.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 30 Jan , 2009, 11:49
Hi Simon,

I don't have a close up photo, but it can be seen from a distance in -

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/deck_bow.jpg)

Your hatch should be the same as the hatches on the aft deck. These can be seen below -

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/deck_stern_3.jpg)

These style of hatches has two small hinges at one end. Towards the opposite side there was a semi-circular hole to allow the hatch to be opened.

Not sure what the weird shaped oulines were on the deck but Type IIs had them too.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Jan , 2009, 13:36
Hi Simon,

I don't have a close up photo, but it can be seen from a distance in -


Your hatch should be the same as the hatches on the aft deck. These can be seen below -


These style of hatches has two small hinges at one end. Towards the opposite side there was a semi-circular hole to allow the hatch to be opened.

Not sure what the weird shaped oulines were on the deck but Type IIs had them too.

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie. Very useful. Best photo I have see of the bow yet. Remembered me that I had not add the Forward Bow Hook Hatch. It
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 30 Jan , 2009, 14:39
......And the quest continues..Thanks Simon/Dougie...Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Jan , 2009, 10:42
I found this photograph in the book U-BOOTE CREWS by Jean Delize. If you look at the photograph it looks like that hatch number 1 is immediately behind the bollards, however, on the plans this hatch is drawn further away from the bollards.

I was wondering that other people thoughts were on the hatch placement?


(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6687/new1vo1.jpg) (http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1883/graphic1gh9.jpg)

(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/355/new6vb3.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 01 Feb , 2009, 11:35
Hi Siara

I was wondering that length did you make your Grapnels? Also during your research on the Grapnels did you come across how it was fix to the deck? I imagine the grapnels were fixed with wing nuts so they could be quickly and easily remove when needed ???  Thanks, Simon.

Siara,
Some times it's hard to believe to detail you put on a build. It also gives me insperation and ideas for my own build. Keep the pics coming.
Thanks Wildspear!
Ill keep the pics coming as you wish....

Grapnels- i think thats what this thing is called- does anybody know?
...
...
...
(http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/5215/kije3011dd6.th.jpg) (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kije3011dd6.jpg) (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4746/kije3012yg5.th.jpg) (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kije3012yg5.jpg)

TBC...

Hi Siara. Another question about the Grapnels - wood or metal ??? Thanks, Simon.
     Hi Simon....Grapnels ?....More than likely wood...If they got dropped overboard they would float ! If metal..They'd be too heavy to handle unless they were tubes...
                                                                       Bill...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Feb , 2009, 11:53
Thanks Bill ;D

Had never given it any thought if it was made of wood or metal until the other day while I was surfing the net and I came across a picture of it on a model, painted in a wood colours. I thought it would be wood not metal, not because the floating thing (but I like your reason better), I thought because, if they stop making the u-boat decks out of metal then were would be no way they would make the Grapnels with metal ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 01 Feb , 2009, 12:06
Hi Simon,

Looking at a few VIIC photos there is a definite space between the bollards and hatch 1. The photo you posted was taken at such an angle that this space can't be appreciated. I'd say the position of the hatches in the Delize plan look about right.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 01 Feb , 2009, 12:15
I thought because, if they stop making the u-boat decks out of metal then were would be no way they would make the Grapnels with metal ;)

The reason the deck is wood, because wood is less prone to freezing in harsh climates- those less slippery
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Feb , 2009, 23:34
Hi Simon,

Looking at a few VIIC photos there is a definite space between the bollards and hatch 1. The photo you posted was taken at such an angle that this space can't be appreciated. I'd say the position of the hatches in the Delize plan look about right.

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie for the input :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Feb , 2009, 16:33
It was a dreadful day at the shipyard, the weather continues getting worse. The morning started with only light rain but by late morning the weather was awful, driving rain and strong winds. The dockworkers refuse to work outside today. They were keen to finish the deck of U-1308, the newest VIIC/41 in the fleet, nevertheless they all voted to work inside due to the weather. They decided to work in the aft battery room.

They installed the new 33 MAL 800 batteries and connected them all up, next they install the small maintenance trolley. They were nearly done with the aft battery room, when they heard the end-of-day whistle blow. Before the whistle finished, they had drop there tools and were halfway out the gate on there way home. There is always tomorrow to finish it ;D

(http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1594/batteriesnk7.th.jpg) (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batteriesnk7.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 02 Feb , 2009, 17:42
    Simon...This was a different and interesting presentation...A breath of fresh air, as it were..I guess thats an exerpt from a book! What's its title ? Looks to be good reading..Also, as always, nice looking artwork of the galley and battery compartment...
                                                 Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Feb , 2009, 11:34
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6362/unknown11ic3.jpg)

Hi Siara, This is U-552?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 03 Feb , 2009, 12:39
No it isnt, in fact the boat is unknown, as far as i know.
U-552 had the conning tower without the extended air vents.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 03 Feb , 2009, 12:43
No it isnt, in fact the boat is unknown, as far as i know.
U-552 had the conning tower without the extended air vents.
  .....And there appears to be some difference in the flood holes from your model...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Feb , 2009, 18:21
Hi Siara, This is U-552?

Thanks, Siara :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2009, 12:24
Does anyone have an image or know how the Aft Navigation Light was attached to the deck on either late war VIIC or VIIC/41? Was it attached to a metal plate (Fig. B) or was it attached to the wooden deck (Fig. A) ???

Thanks, Simon.

(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2748/deck2ss5.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deck2ss5.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 06 Feb , 2009, 14:12
Does anyone have an image or know how the Aft Navigation Light was attached to the deck on either late war VIIC or VIIC/41? Was it attached to a metal plate (Fig. B) or was it attached to the wooden deck (Fig. A) ???

Thanks, Simon.

(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2748/deck2ss5.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deck2ss5.jpg)

Simon, this probably is not much help, but on my model the light housing is directly on the deck.  By the way, did you get the measurements I sent?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2009, 15:39
Simon, this probably is not much help, but on my model the light housing is directly on the deck.  By the way, did you get the measurements I sent?

Yes, thank you. I used them to check the Schnorchel Placement http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=121.0 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=121.0)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Feb , 2009, 14:57
I'm eager to see the continuation of the bowplane cable tensioner assembly.
I'm curious... the things you just made... are they the "self-adjusting tensioners"  that have a heavy spring inside? 
(They do not look like normal manually-adjustable cable tensioners like I made for U-625.)

Glenn- ive seen your tensioners on the U-625- the hook type on the conning tower. I could not get the reference regarding the bowplane tensioners assembly anywhere on the net, apart from few scetchy drawings, and one, or 2 fuzzy pictures- where to be honest with you all you can see is that the cable is there, but how it is all made is not clear.
I was guided by picture of the Glen Buckners boat:
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3028/glenbucknersboatqc4.jpg)
I was trying to replicate what hes done there.
Am i right or wrong? Is there fotografic evidence how the part looked like?

I got around to adding my cable tensioner assembly for the forward hydroplane today. Here is my best guest. Hard to tell if its correct without any good pictures around. I also base my from the picture of U-69 and two other additional pictures where you can see the cable tensioner is visible. The tensioner is base on the close-up picture of U-249 Radio Aerial wire tensioner assembly.

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/889/hydroploneug0.th.jpg) (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hydroploneug0.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 07 Feb , 2009, 17:11
Hello,

I don't know if I can be of any help to you, but I have some German plans that may be can help. They are quite big and numerous, but I give you an exemple of what they show.

Here after is part of the plan of the GHG.

(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9269/ghgla2.th.jpg) (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ghgla2.jpg)

If you are interested I can scan the rest of the things that you need.

Cordially,
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Feb , 2009, 21:00
Hello,

I don't know if I can be of any help to you, but I have some German plans that may be can help. They are quite big and numerous, but I give you an exemple of what they show.

Here after is part of the plan of the GHG.

(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9269/ghgla2.th.jpg) (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ghgla2.jpg)

If you are interested I can scan the rest of the things that you need.

Cordially,

Thanks Trierarch. You have PM.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 08 Feb , 2009, 04:05
Hello,

I hope you got my emails. If someone else is interested here is the address where you can get these plans:

http://www.christian-schmidt-fachbuchhandlung.de/

It is in Munich in Germany, but you can write in English.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Feb , 2009, 14:45
Maybe I am getting carry away with the detail ;D The GHG & UT wiring from sensors to PH. Thanks Trierarch for the plans.

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6038/underdeckhq7.th.jpg) (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=underdeckhq7.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 10 Feb , 2009, 09:22
Bloody hell- extreme detailing. Wish you were here when i was researching the U-552. ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Feb , 2009, 19:56
Does anyone know if the height between the top of the pressure hull and the deck was greater for the VIIC/41 compare to the VIIC? I measurement the distance and I find that the VIIC/41 is approximately 200 mm higher. Is this correct?

Was it higher to make more room for piping etc...?

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1299/graphic1hw1.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Feb , 2009, 22:14
I have just finish completely redrawing the stern part of the hull of my drawing. I have used genuine U-boat measurement base on very precise U-boat plans. That I was very kindly given to me by Trierarch ;D. All the frames, ribbings,
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 14 Feb , 2009, 01:50
Really good job!
I can imagine, your drawings to be of great help for the model builders. Where were you when i needed to know how the U-Boot intestines looked like? >:(
I hope you will make the same kind of drawings before i start the type II. ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 15 Feb , 2009, 01:39
Superb, :D

You are really making an outstanding job here.

I am glad that my plans helped you so much, but yours , as Siarra mentioned justly, will become the new Bible reference for future modelers. 8)

I can't wait to see the rest. :P

As I am actually working on the front inside parts, I think I will wait a bit until you have completed that part too before I go any further.

I will also second Siarra vote for a set of plans on type II. ;)

Cordially,
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Feb , 2009, 03:18
As I am actually working on the front inside parts, I think I will wait a bit until you have completed that part too before I go any further.

I have just started on the engine room today :) I will finish this section and then move to the bow section. I have done a lot of it already. I think I only need to check the frames and ribing spacing ::)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 15 Feb , 2009, 11:40
Good, so it leave me plenty of time for a few of those excellent German beers...  :P Maybe I'll also go for some schnapps as well to toast to your superb plans... 8) hips!!! ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 15 Feb , 2009, 12:34
Hi guys,

There will be a Type II side profile plan in 72nd scale in the AMP set. When we were designing the set we drew a plan as we were going along. This is essential to show the modeller exactly where the hull pieces and drill templates should be placed on the kit hull. The idea is for the modeller to lay the kit hull on top of the plan, and then get placement of the parts in the correct position.

The same is true for the tower. We have side profiles for both sides of the tower (both inside the tower walls and outside).

We don't have internal plans as the set deals with the external parts of the Type IIA.

I'd love to see Simon extending his considerable talents to the internals of the Type IIA!

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Feb , 2009, 01:31
Engine Room - Oil Tanks & Frames ;D Thanks anyone for the nice words.

(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3905/oiltanksframesxz2.th.jpg) (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oiltanksframesxz2.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Feb , 2009, 10:46
Thought this be the quickly way to get the news out (as it on tomorrow) than starting a new topic. I just find this over at the Uboat.net forum.
A documentary on U-480 about Alberich http://www.arte.tv/de/woche/244,broadcastingNum=975967,day=5,week=8,year=2009.html (http://www.arte.tv/de/woche/244,broadcastingNum=975967,day=5,week=8,year=2009.html)

English
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arte.tv%2Fde%2Fwoche%2F244%2CbroadcastingNum%3D975967%2Cday%3D5%2Cweek%3D8%2Cyear%3D2009.html&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Translate (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arte.tv%2Fde%2Fwoche%2F244%2CbroadcastingNum%3D975967%2Cday%3D5%2Cweek%3D8%2Cyear%3D2009.html&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Translate)

Now I wish I was in Germany, as my girlfriend is German and currently over there :'( & I would love to be able to watch is DocO :'(

Updated
If anyone gets to see this DocO, I would be keen to know and ask a few questions, as I am doing U-1308, I would be keen to know anything about how the titles looked on the boat, size, layout etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 16 Feb , 2009, 10:57
Hello,

Thanks for the info, I will look it with great pleasure. ;D

It is just a shame that I have nothing to record it :'(. Maybe later you can check Arte Internet site as they do sometimes sell copies of their programs afterward.

 ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Feb , 2009, 11:12
Thanks Trierarch, Happy watching. I jealous :P :P :P I should be a good DocO. I will check web site and try to get a copy.

If you get to see anything about the titles layout I would be very keen to know. They may even have pictures of U-480 at the bottom of the sea with some of it title still open, that would be very cool 8)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 18 Feb , 2009, 14:55
Hello,

Good news you can watch it here. It will be available for one week starting now!!!

http://plus7.arte.tv/fr/detailPage/1697660,CmC=2454420,scheduleId=2415840.html

I am afraid it is in french so :'( For me it is no problem of course, but at least you can see the whole pictures.

Happy wiewing to everybody ;)

 ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 18 Feb , 2009, 16:04
I forgot to mention that yes you see the ship at the bottom of the channel, and plenty of the rubber tiles detail. They say they had 2 coats, the first one was plain, and then it was covered with a second one with 2 sizes holes to absorb ASDIC.

They say that even the horizontal surfaces of the guns were covered!!!

A great view also of the mirror of the sky view scope among other things.

If you have questions of what they say on particular points, just ask me ;).

 :D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 18 Feb , 2009, 16:15
The video is not available- i think thats what it says.  :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 18 Feb , 2009, 16:38
Sorry you can't watch it, but apparently they have displayed it over 800 times in less than an hour... I tried the link and it work on my computer, may be try again later.

In the mean time here are a few pictures:

Tiles details

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2444/rubber1fi3.th.jpg) (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubber1fi3.jpg)

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8895/rubber2oc0.th.jpg) (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubber2oc0.jpg)

On this one the finger at the bottom left corner gives you an idea of the scale ;)

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4177/rubber3ox9.th.jpg) (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubber3ox9.jpg)
 :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 18 Feb , 2009, 16:42
The sky periscope mirror

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7213/skyscopenq0.th.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skyscopenq0.jpg)

The arrival of the ship at it's base, but I am not certain from the movie that it is the right ship... ???

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2008/280tl3.th.jpg) (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=280tl3.jpg)

(http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3276/280uf6.th.jpg) (http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=280uf6.jpg)

 :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 18 Feb , 2009, 16:50
Hello Siara,

You are correct, right now you can only see the movie with my link, the DVD is not yet available.  I think the video should be out in a few weeks as they sell them from almost all their programs. The video has already reached over 1000 views so far, with such a popular subject, they will need to make a DVD I am quite sure.
 :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Feb , 2009, 19:00
Hi Trierarch. I have only got back from the city (I live about 1
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Feb , 2009, 22:13
I have always wondered that were the total lengths of the Type VIIC are. So while reading The U-boat The evolution and technical history of German submarines I found the numbers. Just thought some of you would be keen to know them.

Version   Total length (mm)

VIIC      67,100

VIIC/41   67,230

VIIC/42A   68,730 (Final VIIC/42 version)         
VIIC/42B   73,400
VIIC/42C   Either 68,730 or 73,400

VIIC/43   68,730 (Total length was not decided)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 19 Feb , 2009, 06:49
Hello Simon,

Administrative problems seems to bug us all over the world, I have been restauring and reselling a few flats, and one of the biggest constraint was often the French administration.

Concerning the movie the main diver is Innes McCartney.

I copied a few facts about him, but I am certain that the people that live in England can somehow contact him.

Innes McCartney is an historian and nautical archaeologist, specialising in 20th century naval vessels. He lectures widely on a number of associated subjects. A passion for shipwrecks has led to some famous discoveries, including the submarine M1 and the battlecruiser HMS Indefatigable. His previous book, Lost Patrols detailed his uncovering the 121 submarines sunk in the English Channel. He lives and works in Penzance, Cornwall.

Dive magasine gives anothe adress:

Born 24 March 1964, London

Lives Cookham, Berkshire

He is also, the editor of Periscope magazine:

http://www.periscopepublishing.com/

I hope that these info can help you a bit,

Cordially,
 :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Feb , 2009, 16:04
Sorry you can't watch it, but apparently they have displayed it over 800 times in less than an hour... I tried the link and it work on my computer, may be try again later.

In the mean time here are a few pictures:

Tiles details

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2444/rubber1fi3.th.jpg) (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubber1fi3.jpg)

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8895/rubber2oc0.th.jpg) (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubber2oc0.jpg)

On this one the finger at the bottom left corner gives you an idea of the scale ;)

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4177/rubber3ox9.th.jpg) (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubber3ox9.jpg)
 :)

Hi Trierarch

Could you see the seam between tiles?

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 20 Feb , 2009, 08:45
Hello NZsnowman,

Yes you could see the seams between the tiles. The tiles seams not very large, and apparently they are not all the same size either.

On this picture you can see a seam at the bottom left:

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6413/rubber5fb7.th.jpg) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubber5fb7.jpg)

Here is a view of the pierced plate being glued onto the basic coat of plain rubber. The basic coat is glued directly on the hull. They say rhat all flat surfaces were covered, including the guns shields. Two exceptions are the CT floor and all the hatches.

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7198/gluerz4.th.jpg) (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gluerz4.jpg)

On this photo you can see a plate separating from the boat surface. This gives you an idea of the thickness of the rubber.

(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7694/rubber4dk6.th.jpg) (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubber4dk6.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 20 Feb , 2009, 08:50
Here are some shots of the 3D modelisation they used for some movie sequences

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/395/3dmodel1kn2.th.jpg) (http://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3dmodel1kn2.jpg)

(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7/3dmodel2pu9.th.jpg) (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3dmodel2pu9.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trierarch on 20 Feb , 2009, 08:54
As you are drawing plans maybe this shot will interest you too. It is one of the propeller that has lost its cover. This way you can see the screw that maintain it in place.

(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1253/propellerfy8.th.jpg) (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=propellerfy8.jpg)
 ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2009, 12:47
Thanks Trierarch for the pictures
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2009, 13:30
Does anyone know if the height between the top of the pressure hull and the deck was greater for the VIIC/41 compare to the VIIC? I measurement the distance and I find that the VIIC/41 is approximately 200 mm higher. Is this correct?

Was it higher to make more room for piping etc...?

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1299/graphic1hw1.jpg)


Just an update on this question, if a few people are wondering :)

After looking at the u-boat plans a little bit more, I believe that the deck height was the same for both the VIIC and the VIIC/41, in fact all the Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2009, 20:37
Does anyone have any pictures of the inside of the keel for the Type VII's? I am after any pictures of the frames within the keel.

Thanks, Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2009, 01:34
Added the Balconger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2009, 11:27
I was reading The U-Boat: The Evolution and Technical History of German Submarines by Eberhard Rossler this morning and it say there were 18,400 construction drawings for the Type XXI  :o :o :o WOW!! Maybe I am missing a few sets of plans ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2009, 12:56
Added the S-Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 27 Feb , 2009, 00:38
very nice dwg!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2009, 18:11
I have just finish the bow section today after completely redrawing it base on real genuine U-boat measurement. Happy viewing :)

(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4539/bowsection.th.jpg) (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bowsection.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 27 Feb , 2009, 20:32
            Many thanks, Simon..I'm putting these to good use..You've saved me much legwork !
                                                                                            Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2009, 20:56
I was hoping to have a updated to my working drawing by now, but it taking me a lots longer to make all the chages and make sure that all the measurements are 100% right. It will be another two weeks :( before I will have a major update ready for the working drawing, but is should be worth the long wait ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 28 Feb , 2009, 12:10
Hi Simon,

Very impressive, keep up the good work.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 02 Mar , 2009, 00:10
Hi Simon, the bow section looks really great!  Wish I could draw as well as you.  Guess I could do a stick figure uboat with my drawing skills.  :D

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Mar , 2009, 20:44
Not a very exciting one today. Here the framing and ribbing for the Bow Torpedo Room, again base on real U-boat measurement. Happy viewing :)

(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/866/bowtorpedoroom.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bowtorpedoroom.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Mar , 2009, 19:57
Here the next section for the framing and ribbing, the Officer & Senior Rate Quarters (again not very exciting section). The tanks mid picture are the washing water tanks, the red bar is the vent valve control arm for the Bow Dive Tanks & the hatch within the PH is the Battery Loading Hatch. Happy viewing :)

(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1654/midsection.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=midsection.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/866/bowtorpedoroom.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bowtorpedoroom.jpg) (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4539/bowsection.th.jpg) (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bowsection.jpg)
Officer & Senior Rate       Bow Torpedo Room              Bow
      Quarters*NEW
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 14 Mar , 2009, 20:52
beautiful stuff
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 16 Mar , 2009, 02:48
Beautiful work Simon!

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Mar , 2009, 13:33
Does anyone have any war-time pictures of the inlets for the main diving tank? These inlets are the ones just above the keel.

Also just conforming the inlets config layout are....... 1 by 2 or 2 by 2, as I have seen drawings of both ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 21 Mar , 2009, 17:11
There are a few dark and fuzzy ones out there, not much. Dougie might be able to point you in the right direction.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Mar , 2009, 13:46
Does anyone have any pictures or drawings of the base of the attack periscope? Thank Simon :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Mar , 2009, 02:31
Here the next section for the framing and ribbing, the Main Diving Tank ;D

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4379/new1u.th.jpg) (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=new1u.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 24 Mar , 2009, 00:39
you really have a big project going on here..when you build you'll think that it's the easy part!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Apr , 2009, 23:24
Here is a updated drawing of the Engine Room :)

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2011/eng1g.th.jpg) (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eng1g.jpg)

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3087/eng2j.th.jpg) (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eng2j.jpg)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Apr , 2009, 22:15
Does anyone have any pictures from inside a conning tower?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 06 Apr , 2009, 05:05
Not so much. I've seen one from ladder to bridge, but not helpful inside. Anatomy of a Uboat has some drawings.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Apr , 2009, 13:30
You can right about the modest amount of pictures from inside a conning tower :( I have only see the three from picture of U-995.

http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995C&img=7 (http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995C&img=7)
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995C&img=9 (http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995C&img=9)
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995C&img=8 (http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995C&img=8)

They are useful. Its a part of a boat that we don
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 06 Apr , 2009, 15:03
Water which entered the boat through the hatch was allowed to flow freely through the floor to the galleys which were situated on both sides of the pressure hull, and then was pumped out.
I heard they used these gulleys as the makeshift toilet. Must have been nice and smelly inside there, when it all mixed up with diesel, sweat, and all the other man flavours. ::)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Apr , 2009, 22:19
Thanks Siara for the information. Are the galleys you are talking about in in red?

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4624/new1wgj.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 07 Apr , 2009, 05:18
Do you know what the plate the with funny outline do?

I really dont know. The shape of it gives me ideas- it may be something to do with the capstan. Picture this:
lever is inserted in the slot, and wedged in the recess to release the clutch mechanism on the capstan ratchet? ???

Than theres two more of these slots on the stern of the boat- so i rally dont know. Maybe someone else can shed some light on it?

Also...Do you know what this is call?

Not a clue my friend. But we have so many submarine eggheads here im sure your question will get answered. ;)

        http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/KM_Uboot_Type_II_1934/
              I HOPE THIS LINK POST OKAY....I FOUND THIS ON U-BOAT.NET...OTHERS IN THIS FORUM MAY HAVE SEEN THE SAME..IT SHOWS THE FUNNY SHAPED BIT THAT HAS ELUDED US. ...NICE DRAWINGS, ENJOY..BILL
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Apr , 2009, 12:55
Two thumb up Bill  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

A huge thanks for the link to the plans
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: vonbulowfla on 08 Apr , 2009, 19:55
yes bill thanks alot for the link . i checked it out today and was very impressed . i myself have never seen a real set of u boat plans . very interesting indeed . like the type 2 . small but a nice boat .cant wait to see the new tamiya 1/35 type 2 boat when it comes out . the one siara turned us on to .well anyway good work on the plans site . have a good one. :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Apr , 2009, 00:08
The tip of the search periscope was painted white at the factory but often captains painted it the same colour of the boat. I was wondering what others are doing with their search periscope.

White or Gray?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 10 Apr , 2009, 02:16
Gray. 8)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Apr , 2009, 11:18
Thanks Siara, any reason why gray? Only because it look better or did you know it was gray on U-552?

Also Siara, I was wondering the galleys you are talking about in the other post are they the areas in red (see picture below)?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 10 Apr , 2009, 13:23
The gray color was standard for everything that was sticking out above the water line.  White color is high contrast, and would be seen easily by aircraft or passing ships. I think the color of the horizon has something to do with it. There were instances where part or whole of the conning tower was painted light gray- almost white, but it was reserved for boats operating near the ice cups of the north sea.
I have close up picture of the periscopes, and even tho they are black, and white-the scopes are deffinitely gray.

Regarding the gulley, i dont know exactly, but i thought they were situated below the control room floor.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Apr , 2009, 13:30
Thanks for you feedback Siara, very insightful and helpful
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: GlennCauley on 10 Apr , 2009, 16:08
cant wait to see the new tamiya 1/35 type 2 boat when it comes out . the one siara turned us on to.

Uhmmmm... you mean the 1/35 model which was the April Fools joke?   ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Apr , 2009, 14:43
The base of the search periscope in the Control Room on U-995 is painted gray with black paint over the gray. All the pictures I have found on the net this morning of the base of the search periscope are gray ??? Can anyone confirm that they are gray not black.

Also does anyone have any good pictures of the controls on the side of the periscope, the ones on U-995 are missing.

Thanks Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 12 Apr , 2009, 22:36
Dougie might know. As for 995, she's "interesting" but so hacked up and served after WWII, and poorly conserved (historically if not physically, anyway), that she is almost a terrible example despite being the last physical VII.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 13 Apr , 2009, 04:42
Hi Simon,

I haven't researched the interior colours but grey would be my guess. Anyone else know?

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 13 Apr , 2009, 05:09
I recon it would be painted grey.
The shots i have seen indicate it was grey, but i think white was used also. Just a guess.
Whichever color you go for it is impossible to prove you right, or wrong, but grey will look better on the drawings i think.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Apr , 2009, 04:25
One search periscope :) (http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/756/periscope3.th.jpg) (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscope3.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 16 Apr , 2009, 01:25
Cool! Wsa the smiley face hard to accurately draw? ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Apr , 2009, 15:39
In Anatomoy of the ship ~ Type VII on page 95, Figure E10/3. It say "Late Type Schorchel head".... I thought this type of schnorchel was only used on Type XXI. Does anyone know if it was used on any Type VII's?

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7489/new1o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Apr , 2009, 02:24
An update on the Schorchel head. I have check with Anatomy of the ship ~ Type XXI and this head was use on the Type XXI and I am 99.9% sure it was not used on any Type VII, however, does anyone have any other thoughts on this?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Bad Karma on 21 Apr , 2009, 10:30
Hi,

I think you`re right on this,
last weekend I looked into my books,studied pictures of the late type VII-C`s,but found nothing.
I have seen this rubber mat only on type`s IX ,X,and the XXI............for now ::) ::) ::) ::).
The type XXIII I am working as we speek.

This is quote from the book''Uboowaffe,marine-kleinkampfverbande 1939-1945'' page54.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It is 10 mm mat made of carbonyl steel and pernunbau(kind of rubber),whose surface resembled that of a waffle
and wich was able to absorb some 50% of the radar echo.Beginnig in September 1944,the ''waschmatte''
was used to wrap schnorkels heads,a modification found on some 100 U-boats by the end WWII.A different radar
countermeasure was fitted to schnorkels with a floater ball cutoff valve.A cilindrical shield from prof.J..Jaumann`s team,
called the ''leitwert-sumpf'',was proposed in early 1944.Constructedwith materials characteristic in electric condition,
the shield was covered with ''zelligelit'',a kind of plastic.Some 70mm thick,the shield produced a 65%radar echo reduction
for radar devices operating on a 9cm-long wave (even more satisfactory results were obtained during testing).
In view of such an outstanding performance,orders went out in mid 1944 to provide schnorkels ,as far as possible,oly with the
ball cutoff valve fitted with the ''leitwewrt-sumpfem''.Manufactured by the firm of IG-FARBEN,the first two shields were send
the yard at GW in early September 1944.Experiments were conducted with other materials absorbing radar waves.
Among available records are test of U-992,covered with a layer of wood,and U-680 and U-1209,
whose hulls were coated with glass wool.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)have a nice day.


my best regards,

Ron.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Apr , 2009, 13:05
Thanks Bad Karma for the information :)

This late Type Schorchel head had two open down pipes, and I am 99.9999999% ;D sure that no Type VII Schorchel had two open down pipes, and I am also sure that all Type VII Schorchel were hind at the base and it would be hard to hind the two down pipes. I think I seen a Type IX with this head but it could be one of the test u-boat and I think the Schorchel as fix in position as well.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Apr , 2009, 14:06
I thought I either heard it somewhere or seen in a books that some Schorchel head were panted in camouflage schemes. Has anyone heard this also or know anything ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Apr , 2009, 18:02
Type VIIC, Schorchel head, with and without Tarnmatte ;D

(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1424/schorchelheads.th.jpg) (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=schorchelheads.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 25 Apr , 2009, 20:33
very nice
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Apr , 2009, 23:58
Does anyone have any picture or drawings of the Main magnetic compass that is in front of the bridge?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 May , 2009, 12:38
I just noted that the Port propeller runs anti-clockwise and the starboard propeller runs clockwise on the Type XXI is this the same for the Type VII ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 08 May , 2009, 15:24
Id say yes. Looking at the shots of the props, you can see the blades are shaped in opposite directions.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 May , 2009, 01:55
Id say yes. Looking at the shots of the props, you can see the blades are shaped in opposite directions.

Good spotting Siara :) Here a picture from U-955.

(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8121/img6194.th.jpg) (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img6194.jpg)
Picture from http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr.Mox on 09 May , 2009, 03:21
I think the word is counter rotating - i guess it would work against the tourgue of the engines and give less vibrations.

Cheers/Jan
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 10 May , 2009, 01:05
Thought I posted yesterday, but must have been lost at last minute! I'll have to see a moderator! GRRRR!

YES, all (most) two screw boats/ships in navy counter rotated because of torque, as you guys mention. The early WWI biplanes had true rotary engines ("rotary rights"), and because of the huge extra torque, right turns were short and intense.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: rabapla on 11 May , 2009, 05:16
actually it prevents the boat from steering off a straight line:
given that the pressure is different on top and bottom of the screw, it gives the stern the tendency to steer to the right with a clockwise rotation of the screw.
usefull when you want to bring the stern to the quay........
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 May , 2009, 23:40
I am working on the bridge of my VIIC/41, what things are I missing like e.g. voice pipe?, Engine revolution repeator? Compass repeater? What should be on the bridge?

(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3019/new2dky.th.jpg) (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=new2dky.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 14 May , 2009, 12:58
Good Job Simon.
One thing- the top of the attack periscope housing should be on the same level as the CT walls.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 14 May , 2009, 15:01
Hi Simon,

Yeah, you'll need a compass repeater, engine dial and voicepipe. Have a look at this photo -

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U995_tower.jpg)

It is of U 995 after her Norwegian service. Now there may have been changes made by the Norwegians. But I don't have a photo of the "dashboard" of a wartime VIIC/41. You can see the compass repeater and engine dial are in the usual location, as on VIICs. The viocepipe is in the usual location to the starboard side (but is partially obscured by the periscope base).

Remember that a shelf was fitted to the VIICs and VIIC/41s from mid-war or so. The photos of U 377 show an example of this shelf, which was usually flat. Note there would be a hole in this shelf to allow access for the sky periscope. 

The photo below is of U 993 on the 8th July 1943 -

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U993_8jul43.jpg)

The boat isn't finished yet. The engine dial is there. There is something where the compass repeater would usually go. The shelf on top hasn't been added yet. This is good for us as it allows us to see all the way forward to the area that would later be hidden under the shelf.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: vonbulowfla on 14 May , 2009, 15:45
good stuff dougie .nice ! :D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 May , 2009, 18:56
Many thanks to eveyone for the information on the bridge. I am going to work on this over the weekend  :)

How did the voice pipe work ??? I can not imagine the voice pipe went through the pressure hull.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 May , 2009, 19:50

The photo below is of U 993 on the 8th July 1943 -

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U993_8jul43.jpg)

The boat isn't finished yet. The engine dial is there. There is something where the compass repeater would usually go. The shelf on top hasn't been added yet. This is good for us as it allows us to see all the way forward to the area that would later be hidden under the shelf.

Is the above dial, the angles of rudder or engine dial? As it looks more like the angles of rudder dial.

(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4950/new1.jpg) (http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9417/new2b.jpg)
                    angles of rudder dial                                               engine dial
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 May , 2009, 10:16

The photo below is of U 993 on the 8th July 1943 -

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U993_8jul43.jpg)

The boat isn't finished yet. The engine dial is there. There is something where the compass repeater would usually go. The shelf on top hasn't been added yet. This is good for us as it allows us to see all the way forward to the area that would later be hidden under the shelf.

Is the picture of the dial above, the angles of rudder or engine dial? As it looks more like the angles of rudder dial.

(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4950/new1.jpg) (http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9417/new2b.jpg)
                    angles of rudder dial                                               engine dial
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: vonbulowfla on 15 May , 2009, 10:35
i would say i was the engine dial . looks like it anyway. :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 16 May , 2009, 03:00
"Stopp" is the one that make me agree, and from Silent Hunter 3 "Kleine Fahrt" (which, yes, childishly, mafe me laugh - the audio is "Kleye-nen Faaart!"
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 May , 2009, 22:59
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6218/attackperiscope.th.jpg) (http://img196.imageshack.us/my.php?image=attackperiscope.jpg)

Added the attack periscope to the Conning tower today. I only had 3 pictures to work from. Any feedback, things I have miss or any pictures of the attack periscope within Conning tower would be great  :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 16 May , 2009, 23:43
Good question on the voice pipe, what a terrible hull penetration! Even if you relied on outside pressure keeping a cap shut, scary [insert 3 stooges "nnnnnaaaaaaah" scary noise here]
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 May , 2009, 23:29
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9461/new1a.jpg)

What is A for ???

Is B wood or metal ???

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: rabapla on 18 May , 2009, 03:59
B should be wood......
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 May , 2009, 18:51
Just want to confirm that TDC was only located in the Conning tower ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 May , 2009, 13:25
I have always thought that there were two TDC on a U-Boat, one in the Conning tower and one in the Control Room. However, now I believe there was only one in the Conning tower. Can anyone confirm this for me?

(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7454/tdc.th.jpg) (http://img35.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdc.jpg)
Attack periscope & TDC within the Conning tower :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 21 May , 2009, 05:46
Only with general info from various reading...the TDC was a pretty amazing thing at the time, a compact computer! There was only ONE on any boat, any navy. They were a Big Deal. The USN had one that could update all info automatically. The Kriegsmarine's was a bit limited. They could input a problem and get a firing solution, but when things changed they had to re-input new info.

Periscopes were a Big Deal, too, but more of a Medium Deal - hi-tech optics and construction, but nowhere near as tricky and complex as a mechanical computer. The USN TDCs were big, about the size of a small fridge (not bar fridge, just a bit smaller than a double door). We're talking big stuff. VERY impressive though, from what I've read there were no major problems with them (as opposed to US radar and anyone's hydraulics at critical times).
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 May , 2009, 15:33
Here the other part of the TDC, the two switch boxes in the Control room.

(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8789/tdc1.th.jpg) (http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdc1.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 May , 2009, 03:46
Update:

(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5737/fumb35.th.jpg) (http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fumb35.jpg)
The atteck periscope (middle); the FuMB-9 Wanze (left) and the FuMB-35 Athos (right) (both passive radar detection) with pictures of U-249.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Jun , 2009, 03:05
  (http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9248/new2rcp.th.jpg) (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=new2rcp.jpg) Drawing: The full search periscope housing  :)



(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/81/img6606v.jpg)
There is a cable (red arrow) that runs from the bottom of the search periscope into the search periscope housing. Does anyone know that happen to this cable in the periscope housing ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Bad Karma on 03 Jun , 2009, 08:28
Well what I think is that this ''retraction cable'' has the same lenght(or shorter not longer) as the ''search periscoop housing'',this housing goes
right into the main diving tank.So i think this cable goes straight down in the housing,I think it will not bend in the housing.

More thoughts on this is always welcom ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Jun , 2009, 14:21
Do you think there was a small motor at the bottom of the housing to help the search periscope retract ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Jun , 2009, 03:16
Yes. I say this from physics and USN boats (had motors). A long steel tube filled with bits of this and that, there's no way to quickly and safely continually move it manually up and down.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Bad Karma on 04 Jun , 2009, 10:52
I have looked at the drawings of David Westwood,is this than a motor for the attack scope ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)(number 16)

(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6792/controlroom.th.jpg) (http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?image=controlroom.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Jun , 2009, 13:33
Bad Karma, you are right about the motor, I knew about this motor. You can just make out the cables warping around periscope in the picture (from the other post) and then going up the periscope. In the picture (below) you can see the two cable on the side of the wall running down the to the motor. The red arrow is the up/down control arm for the periscope. I thought this motor may only rise the periscope and there was a small motor at the bottom of the housing to help lower the  periscope, but maybe there enough weight in the periscope that it would lower itself ???

(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7104/graphic1l.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: kagero43 on 06 Jun , 2009, 05:48
Wow - throughly researched! I like the fact that you have colors included as well. Thanks for sharing. - Harvey
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Jun , 2009, 23:59
A update of the bow pressure hull around the torpedo tubes  :)

(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9127/new1lbh.th.jpg) (http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=new1lbh.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Jun , 2009, 22:07
all comes together quite nicely!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Aug , 2009, 12:20
It was a dreadful day at the shipyard, the weather continues getting worse. The morning started with only light rain but by late morning the weather was awful, driving rain and strong winds. The dockworkers refuse to work outside today. They were keen to finish the deck of U-1308, the newest VIIC/41 in the fleet, nevertheless they all voted to work inside due to the weather. They decided to work in the aft battery room.

They installed the new 33 MAL 800 batteries and connected them all up, next they install the small maintenance trolley. They were nearly done with the aft battery room, when they heard the end-of-day whistle blow. Before the whistle finished, they had drop there tools and were halfway out the gate on there way home. There is always tomorrow to finish it ;D


Now all the dockworkers were standing before the large iron gates of the shipyard that have been locked for the last few months. They were all keen and yearning to go back to work on U-1308 and finish this last boast of the VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Sep , 2009, 23:24
The shipyard has reopened ;D

I have started to update the diesel engine, as I was luck enough to get some additional technical drawings of the diesel engine from Tomi_099 from over at SUBSIM Forums. Thanks mate!!  :) :)

Picture (left) is the old diesel engine drawing (right) is the update drawing and (center) is the real thing ;D

(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5384/update.th.jpg) (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/update.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Sep , 2009, 02:41
That's a lot of excellent work!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Sep , 2009, 00:39
A small update  :)

(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7010/51889002.th.jpg) (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/51889002.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 10 Sep , 2009, 03:12
excellent additonal layer, adds to it!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Sep , 2009, 12:03
Add the acceleration bar to the front of the diesel engine, the tap for purging of the cylinders, the return spring for the smaller pusher rods and change the colour of the main pusher rods.

(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/742/new1r.th.jpg) (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/new1r.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 15 Sep , 2009, 05:08
You're going to have to sell these to museums you know...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Sep , 2009, 01:07
Update:

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4765/new2xd.th.jpg) (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/new2xd.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 17 Sep , 2009, 03:25
Hey I was serious, you should put this on CD and make money while wowing folks.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Sep , 2009, 21:42
Hatch Cover  :)

(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2373/hatchc.th.jpg) (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/hatchc.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 23 Sep , 2009, 05:23
because I know what they look like, this is my fav so far, very well done.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Sep , 2009, 15:01
Auxiliary oil pump :)

(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/795/img6472m.th.jpg) (http://img98.imageshack.us/i/img6472m.jpg/) (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7974/new2v.th.jpg) (http://img98.imageshack.us/i/new2v.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 30 Sep , 2009, 06:06
Auxiliary-Schmauxilary, it's so nice it should be the primary!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Oct , 2009, 14:25
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2526/new1tj.jpg)

Does anyone know that the word is at the top is? This it "Delrieb" ??? Thanks.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: JAORSA on 10 Oct , 2009, 15:15
Betrieb = Operational???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 10 Oct , 2009, 17:02
Anlassen is START, so some form of pause or stop or hold? START/OPERATE/ finished (as uin above, "operatED")?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Oct , 2009, 00:31
(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6412/new3vb.th.jpg) (http://img301.imageshack.us/i/new3vb.jpg/)
Oil pump & controls of starting and acceleration of the motor
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 15 Oct , 2009, 01:11
Lovely work Simon! :o
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Oct , 2009, 18:46
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5425/new3sn.th.jpg) (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/new3sn.jpg/) (http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2294/img6614z.th.jpg) (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/img6614z.jpg/)

I just finish the front of the diesel engine today. As you can see its made up of four layers. Happy viewing :)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 17 Oct , 2009, 20:47
get some fuel and start her up!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Oct , 2009, 13:18
Does anyone know that happen to the Balconger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Oct , 2009, 15:41
Updated and make the search periscope more accurate ;D

(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8950/new5pt.th.jpg) (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/new5pt.jpg/)
Old (left) and newer (right)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 24 Oct , 2009, 11:29
Hi Simon,

Great drawings, as always. If you find an answer to the Balkongeraet question please do let us know.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Oct , 2009, 12:07
Hi Dougie

I was just reading that you write in Type VII modifications under "Part VI - Final Thoughts, Museum boat U 955". You said "The boat did not have the Balkon-Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Oct , 2009, 12:21
Update: Balkon-Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Oct , 2009, 01:37
Updated: Hatch

The original drawing was base mainly on the United States Navy USS Gato (SS-212) hatch and a few pictures of U-995 hatch I had at the time. With far better pictures of the hatch on U-955, that I got today. I have made a few changes to correct the drawing to a German style hatch.

However, half way through the drawing today I realizes the were is a different locking system for the Tower Hatch & the Access hatch to the tower.


* Added brass contact rings to hatch rings.
* Added a O-ring to the contact rings
* Added split pins.
* Added a check valve to only the access hatch to the tower, must be used to check if there water in the CT.
* Remove handle from hatch handle.
* Added completely different locking system.
* Corrected the hatch hinge.

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3918/hatchg.th.jpg) (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/hatchg.jpg/)     (http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2373/hatchc.th.jpg) (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/hatchc.jpg/)
  Newer -German Style            Older - USN/German Style
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 27 Oct , 2009, 05:15
The hatch is operational...nice work
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 27 Oct , 2009, 12:28
Simon, your drawings are good enough to use for research.  Fantastic work my friend!

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Oct , 2009, 16:04
Does anyone know that these are ??? That they are use for ??? Thanks.

(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6564/img67881.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Oct , 2009, 01:36
Does anyone know that the size of the rivets are on the hull ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 31 Oct , 2009, 18:49
too small to really do accurately! But I think oversize ones are better than none, very personal I guess.

I think they were like skyscraper building rivets, quite large, but beyond that I have NO info. I would GUESS, if forced, about 1 inch/25mm head, maybe 3/4. Dougie probably knows!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Oct , 2009, 19:09
I was also thinking about 30mm wide. In my drawing I have them at 27mm so far ;D The thing I would real like to know, what is the spacing between the rivets, I am thinking about 100mm.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 01 Nov , 2009, 01:19
             Hello, Simon....You've got mail...Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 01 Nov , 2009, 09:08
Hi guys,

The rivets can be seen on this photo of U 228 below -

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U228_2.jpg)

Going by the vertical line of rivets directly in front of the upper torpedo door, maybe the spacing between rivets is about 75mm to 80mm? Note the staggered double line of rivets along the stem.

Hope this photo helps.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Nov , 2009, 11:46
Can anyone can confirm that the engine are 0.7
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Nov , 2009, 12:37
Sad news :'(

My engine is approximately 108 mm (real world) to small or 2.5 mm on my drawing at 1:43 scale ;D Will have to fix that tomorrow! Can not have the engine drawing 2.5 mm too small  ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Nov , 2009, 00:58
I thought I would show you the steps I take while doing my drawing :) I want to add the pipes for the engine outlets.

(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/2808/10352381.jpg)
The pipe outlets on the engine.

(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/92/pp3k.th.jpg) (http://img230.imageshack.us/i/pp3k.jpg/) (http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5313/pp2v.th.jpg) (http://img230.imageshack.us/i/pp2v.jpg/) (http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1149/pipe1.th.jpg) (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/pipe1.jpg/)
The plans.
After spending 6 hours looking at piping plans ::) I worked out the pipe layout for the two outlet pipe from the engine. The outlets (Green arrows) and the flow (Red arrows) to the valve and out into the two oil tanks (Orange arrows).

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4166/pipe1o.th.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/pipe1o.jpg/) (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9122/pipe3w.th.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/pipe3w.jpg/)
The finish drawing.
Then 2 hours to draw the pipes.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 07 Nov , 2009, 01:38
Awesome work NZ.  I know its been asked before, but what computer program(s) do you use to make the drawings?

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Nov , 2009, 01:51
CorelDraw X4  :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Nov , 2009, 21:01
I know that these pictures are of poor quality, but I was wondering if anyone know that these words are (red arrows).

Thanks, Simon

(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3916/16206645.th.jpg) (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/16206645.jpg/) (http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6483/new1j.th.jpg) (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/new1j.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 09 Nov , 2009, 13:41
I know that these pictures are of poor quality, but I was wondering if anyone know that these words are (red arrows).

Thanks, Simon

(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3916/16206645.th.jpg) (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/16206645.jpg/) (http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6483/new1j.th.jpg) (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/new1j.jpg/)

 

Hi Simon, the middle word in the small picture is:  Gl
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Nov , 2009, 19:27
Thank Ernest :) Any help would be great!!


I know that these pictures are of poor quality, but I was wondering if anyone know that these words are (red arrows).

Thanks, Simon

(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3916/16206645.th.jpg) (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/16206645.jpg/) (http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6483/new1j.th.jpg) (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/new1j.jpg/)

 

Hi Simon, the middle word in the small picture is:  Gl
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Nov , 2009, 19:36
Hi Dougie

In your Type VII modifications report on page 45 under 'Late UZO', do you have any more pictures of this later UZO? Or a better picture of the one in the report? As I would like to draw it for my U-Boat  :)

Thanks, Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Nov , 2009, 10:11
Does anyone know anything more about the Lime-water (acid neutralizing) system for the battery compartments?

I have seen the drawing from U-boat Archive http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate26.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate26.htm) but that the extent of that I know about this system.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Nov , 2009, 11:05
If anyone is using this drawing as a reference, I just realize it is incorrect :( In Battery Room 1, I drawn the batteries as 4x3x4, this is incorrect! It should be 3x3x4 Port side and 4x3x4 on the starboard side.

It was a dreadful day at the shipyard, the weather continues getting worse. The morning started with only light rain but by late morning the weather was awful, driving rain and strong winds. The dockworkers refuse to work outside today. They were keen to finish the deck of U-1308, the newest VIIC/41 in the fleet, nevertheless they all voted to work inside due to the weather. They decided to work in the aft battery room.

They installed the new 33 MAL 800 batteries and connected them all up, next they install the small maintenance trolley. They were nearly done with the aft battery room, when they heard the end-of-day whistle blow. Before the whistle finished, they had drop there tools and were halfway out the gate on there way home. There is always tomorrow to finish it ;D

(http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1594/batteriesnk7.th.jpg) (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batteriesnk7.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Nov , 2009, 18:35
Torpedoes Loading Plans

While doing some research on the Lime-water system. I come across two set of plans for loading torpedoes. I had not seen these before, so though people may want to have a look. Happy viewing  :)

Plan 1

http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXCS75-3PlateI.jpg (http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXCS75-3PlateI.jpg)

Plan 2
http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXCS75-3PlateII.jpg (http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXCS75-3PlateII.jpg)

Full Report
http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Nov , 2009, 19:45
Yesterday I did a test print out of my posters to check the sizing. There will be two posters, one of the inside of the U-Boat and the other of the outside. Each drawing of the U-Boat will be 1600mm by 600mm (9 x 2 A4 pages for the test print as my printer will on do A4). The posters are for my new house for my officer. Here are a few pictures of the poster in my office. Can not wait til both the house and posters are finish ;D

(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7683/home1b.th.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/home1b.jpg/)
This wall will have inside view of my U-Boat

(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1715/home2zu.th.jpg) (http://img404.imageshack.us/i/home2zu.jpg/)
This wall will have outside view, I have not print it out yet.

(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4264/home3m.th.jpg) (http://img91.imageshack.us/i/home3m.jpg/)
And this is my house in winter :) The mountain behind my house are the Craigieburn Range. This is where I work as a avalanche forecast :)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 12 Nov , 2009, 08:50
Torpedoes Loading Plans

While doing some research on the Lime-water system. I come across two set of plans for loading torpedoes. I had not seen these before, so though people may want to have a look. Happy viewing  :)

Plan 1

http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXCS75-3PlateI.jpg (http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXCS75-3PlateI.jpg)

Plan 2
http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXCS75-3PlateII.jpg (http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXCS75-3PlateII.jpg)

Full Report
http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm)


Hi Simon, thank you for this information, it will come in handy for me.  I have sent an email to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago asking for detailed photos of U-505's periscope.  The two detailed pictures I have are the front and bottom/front, neither of which shows the words you are looking for.  I hope the museum can help us out with a couple of photos.

Your drawing is beautiful!

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Nov , 2009, 11:47
Hi Ernest

I had some feedback also from Uboat.net, someone suggest the three words are: Farb (A color len), Gl
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 12 Nov , 2009, 13:10
Hi Ernest

I had some feedback also from Uboat.net, someone suggest the three words are: Farb (A color len), Gl
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 13 Nov , 2009, 13:41
Hi Simon,

My apologies for my delay in replying, I have been on paternity leave recently and have had no spare time. Below are a few shots of the late UZO. They aren't great - as always we need better resources. Your house looks brilliant, as do your posters on the wall.

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/UZO_late_U1004.jpg)

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/UZO_late_U994_2.jpg)

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/UZO_late.jpg)

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Nov , 2009, 17:33
That is SOME fine house and location! And of course your dwgs!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Nov , 2009, 18:23
I have added the wiring, the insulating cork (the light brown layer next to the Pressure Hull) and a control rod that run along the starboard Pressure Hull (I believe the control rod is for the aft hydroplane ???). Pressure Hull and Ribbing are now to scale ;D (Pressure Hull is 21 mm - because this is a Type VIIC/41) and ribbing is 200 x 70 x 11 mm.

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8483/85138338.th.jpg) (http://img134.imageshack.us/i/85138338.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Top view - Starboard only.

(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9828/32678638.th.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/i/32678638.jpg/)
Fig. 2. Side view - Port - Pressure Hull, Ribbing and Plate Steel (Not to scale - yet  ;D)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Nov , 2009, 18:26
Exhaust manifold

I am look for any pictures of the Exhaust manifold. If anyone know of any pictures on the net or have any I would be very kind to have a look at them. The best picture I have found so far is from www.u-historia.com (http://www.u-historia.com)

(http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/visitaguiada/soplagasescape/colescape.jpg) (http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4372/step3d.jpg)
Picture from www.u-historia.com (http://www.u-historia.com)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Nov , 2009, 22:27
Ventilation System

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/2916/32155295.jpg)
Fig. 1. Main valve with interconnecting pipes between port and starboard ventilator.

(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/409/81164288.jpg)
Fig. 2. Main valve with the port ventilator.

(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5320/70763642.jpg)
Fig. 3. Main valve, port ventilator and pipes & valves.

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5013/28051286.th.jpg) (http://img134.imageshack.us/i/28051286.jpg/)
Fig. 4. Port Ventilation system with control arm.

(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1764/img6487.jpg)
Fig. 5. Starboard ventilation system from U-995. Picture from http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)


Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Nov , 2009, 18:11
Fuse Boxes

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2219/fuseboxes.th.jpg) (http://img145.imageshack.us/i/fuseboxes.jpg/)
Fig 1. Several type of fuse boxes that are found within a U-Boat.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Nov , 2009, 12:33
Hi All

I have seen this marking on a few switches, it look like a 'V' within a 'A' (lower right corner). Does anyone know the marking or the company?

Thanks, Simon.

(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1755/img6303p.jpg)
Picture from http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Nov , 2009, 19:33
Small Electrical boxes and switch

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4190/electricalsystem.th.jpg) (http://img134.imageshack.us/i/electricalsystem.jpg/)
Fig 1. Several type of electrical boxes found within a engine room.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Nov , 2009, 20:12
Auxiliary Oil Pump

(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/7765/auxiliaryoilpump.th.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/auxiliaryoilpump.jpg/)
Fig. 1. The Auxiliary Oil Pump found in the engine room on the port side of the boat.

(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4157/portimg1801.th.jpg) (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/portimg1801.jpg/)
Fig. 2. The Auxiliary Oil Pump found in the engine room of U-995. Picture from http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4190/electricalsystem.th.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/electricalsystem.jpg/)
Fig. 3. Electrical boxes and switches found in the engine room.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Nov , 2009, 17:13
Does anyone know the diameter of the two pipes (red & green) for the air trunking ??? Thanks, Simon.

(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4822/pipesize.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 01 Dec , 2009, 00:45
Hi Ernest

I had some feedback also from Uboat.net, someone suggest the three words are: Farb (A color len), Gl
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Dec , 2009, 01:27
Hi Ernest

I had some feedback also from Uboat.net, someone suggest the three words are: Farb (A color len), Gl
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Dec , 2009, 10:49
Hi All

I was wondering if anyone has any pictures or information on the exhaust silencer?

Thanks, Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Dec , 2009, 13:02
Hi All

Can anyone please conform this for me. In a cross section view we know that the stern angles down to the very stern, but is there a second angle change above the end of the pressure hull?

(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8017/new1t.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 10 Dec , 2009, 14:20
As far as i know- theres only one angle.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Dec , 2009, 18:44
Thanks Siara for you help :) I have never seen any original German measurements for the area between the top of the deck and the pressure hull/stringer. A few of my scan plans looked like they had a second angle :-\, but maybe it was just the way they were scanned.

I thought it was unusual to have a second angle, as the different between the two angle is only about 2-3
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Dec , 2009, 23:50
I have to change my mind now. I recheck all my measurements and there must be a second angle in the stern deck. As the rudder post will not fix under the deck, in fact the top of rudder post stick through the deck :(

I believe the second angle was at the end of the wooden deck (Frame No. -3).

Here are the stern deck numbers I believe.

Frame Number +19 to +60.1; Deck angle 0.0
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 11 Dec , 2009, 02:25
Interesting.
What i was goin to say is- the change of angle on the rear of the deck is not sharp, but kinda soft- thus making the deck sloping gently.
On your drawings it looks almost like suden change of angle. What about rounding it a little- will it make the difference?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Dec , 2009, 02:36
Yes, I think you are right, the angle does like a little sudden :( I will look into this tomorrow morning, getting late in NZ, time to go to bed now ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Dec , 2009, 02:37
Hi All

I have seen this marking on a few switches, it look like a 'V' within a 'A' (lower right corner). Does anyone know the marking or the company?

Thanks, Simon.

(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1755/img6303p.jpg)
Picture from http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml

Found the answer to the marking - Voigt & Haeffner A. G.  ;D
(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8363/new1l.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 11 Dec , 2009, 15:04
Hi gents,

You may be right about the second angle, Simon, but it is so hard to tell. I can't tell a noticeable second angle change in period photos. I'd favour Siara's advice on rounding it off as this would be a safer bet.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Dec , 2009, 15:44
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9553/exhaustsystem.th.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/exhaustsystem.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Exhaust System.

The exhaust system is nearly finish :) it taken me a lots of research, reading, asking questions (thanks again to everyone who is helping me!!!) and drawing to get it all correct. There is lots of detail in the drawing, like the correct scaling of nuts, rivets, piping, plate steel etc... I have added detail of the building hatch (you can see this in the change in the ribbing, and the change in the pressure hull). I have added the forward diesel exhaust valve that leads to the schnorochel (This took me some time to get the correct valve and handle). I am currently working on the exhaust outlet with help from Dougie. When I will finish I will start working again on the Ventilation system in the Engine Room.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Dec , 2009, 02:11
Interesting.
What i was goin to say is- the change of angle on the rear of the deck is not sharp, but kinda soft- thus making the deck sloping gently.
On your drawings it looks almost like suden change of angle. What about rounding it a little- will it make the difference?

Hi gents,

You may be right about the second angle, Simon, but it is so hard to tell. I can't tell a noticeable second angle change in period photos. I'd favour Siara's advice on rounding it off as this would be a safer bet.

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie & Siara

Was looking for pictures of the Diesel Exhaust Outlets today, I came across two really good pictures of the stern that show the profile very well. You can see the second change of angle, plus both you guys are right, you can see that this second change of angle is rounded. I will start working on the new profile and post it when it finish.

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Dec , 2009, 13:24
Using a 1:15 scale original German Hull Section plan, I realign them in a lateral view to workout the deck profile. From this I could see that the rounding of the second angle was between frame number -6 and -3. Here the new update of the deck profile :)

(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3850/new2n.th.jpg) (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/new2n.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 14 Dec , 2009, 13:45
Thats more like it Simon. ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Dec , 2009, 22:48
Hi All

I have two plans that illustrate the aft Battery Hatch, but they are both in different location :( Does anyone know the correct location for the aft Battery Hatch?

(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3843/batt1.jpg)
Fig. 1. Battery Hatch location between frame number 41 and 42.

(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5104/batt2.jpg)
Fig. 2. Battery Hatch location between frame number 44 and 45.

Thanks, Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Dec , 2009, 13:43
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/214/helpq.png) Question: Compressed Air Bottles

I have see the values for capacity, pressure etc... for the compressed air bottles but I have not see the dimensions of them. Does anyone know there dimensions ???

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Dec , 2009, 15:05
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5143/updatel.png) Assembly & Building Hatches

(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/6348/new2a.th.jpg) (http://img693.imageshack.us/i/new2a.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Step 1: Pressure Hull.

(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8613/new3k.th.jpg) (http://img693.imageshack.us/i/new3k.jpg/)
Fig. 2. Step 2: Pressure hull with Assembly and Building hatches.

(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1331/step3ce.th.jpg) (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/step3ce.jpg/)
Fig. 3. Step 3: Assembly opening, building hatch, Exhaust piping & Ventilation piping.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Dec , 2009, 20:01
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5143/updatel.png) Ventilation System - Finish

(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2705/27845995.th.jpg) (http://img218.imageshack.us/i/27845995.jpg/)


(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4306/icona.png) http://www.mediafire.com/?no0tt33z4ti (http://www.mediafire.com/?no0tt33z4ti) (3.8 MB - PDF of Ventilation and Exhaust System)


(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/214/helpq.png)

I was laying in bed this morning and wondering why are the models 1:72 scale, why not 1:70 or 1:75 scale? Anyone know why 1:72 scale.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 30 Dec , 2009, 06:34
Good question, Simon.

Aircraft model scales tend to be in 24th, 32nd, 48th, 72nd, and 144th scale. All numbers that we can divide by 8. This allows Airfix's new 1/24th Mosquito (with 617 parts by the way!) to be exactly twice the size of a 1/48th Mosquito. If 1/72nd had been rounded off to 1/75th we wouldn't be able to make such a comparison.

Armour and some helicopters tend to use 35th scale. Not sure why they are in this different size. Anyone know?

Ship models tend to be in 72nd, 96th, 144th, 192nd, 350th, 700th, 720th and 1200th (other scales are used too). Obviously all of these scales don't conform to the same neat systems that aircraft scale conform to. Some are multiples of 8, while 350th and 700th have been rounded off to the nearest big numbers.

Are you thinking of printing your drawings off in various scales?

Cheers,

Dougie

 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Anakin on 30 Dec , 2009, 07:23
Looky looky---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1/72_scale_Plastic_soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1/72_scale_Plastic_soldiers)   :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 30 Dec , 2009, 08:12
Hi Anakin,

Wiki does have its uses! This explains the origin of 35th scale -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1:35

This link has a list of scales -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scale_model_sizes

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Anakin on 30 Dec , 2009, 08:20
Hi Dougie.

Actually i also scratched my head for a while... And the my friend Mr. Google gave me some answers..  :)
I hope you can get a sleep tonite!   ;D   

-Anakin-
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Dec , 2009, 12:28
Are you thinking of printing your drawings off in various scales?
As the drawing is a vector base and I have scale all the nuts, bolts, rivets and steel to scale. I can scale the drawing to any small from 1:1 to 1:20,000 ;D But I will keep my poster to 1:43 scale which will make the drawing about 1,600 mm long.


Thanks, Dougie & Anakin for the information about the scaling :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Siara on 30 Dec , 2009, 13:14
 I think the set of drawings in 1/72 its a good idea. ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Anakin on 31 Dec , 2009, 05:29
I found something while searching balkon gerat... Thought there might be something useful knowledge.
http://www.cdvandt.org/schluessel_m4.htm (http://www.cdvandt.org/schluessel_m4.htm) M4 Enigma
http://www.cdvandt.org/Metox.pdf (http://www.cdvandt.org/Metox.pdf) Metox
Also info about GHG and balkon gerat + tons of stuff.

http://www.cdvandt.org/ (http://www.cdvandt.org/)

-Anakin-
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Dec , 2009, 11:16
I found something while searching balkon gerat... Thought there might be something useful knowledge.
http://www.cdvandt.org/schluessel_m4.htm (http://www.cdvandt.org/schluessel_m4.htm) M4 Enigma
http://www.cdvandt.org/Metox.pdf (http://www.cdvandt.org/Metox.pdf) Metox
Also info about GHG and balkon gerat + tons of stuff.

http://www.cdvandt.org/ (http://www.cdvandt.org/)

-Anakin-


Thanks Anakin for the links! :)  I had seen some of the links but did not realize how much information there was.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 03 Jan , 2010, 21:20
Hi.  New member here.  Please excuse me if I screw up the proper format for posting since this is a new forum software that I'll have to learn how to use yet.

I've been building a 1:72 scale U-boat and had been searching for trunking and piping detail under the casing, since it's all going to be accessible in my model, and when I found NZSnowman's drawings they just blew me away.  He's got exactly the data I've been looking for all this time and his drawings are terrific!!!!

Anyway, so much for introduction.  Now to take a stab at answering a recent question.

NZSnowman asked: "I was laying in bed this morning and wondering why are the models 1:72 scale, why not 1:70 or 1:75 scale? Anyone know why 1:72 scale."

And dougie47 replied: "Aircraft model scales tend to be in 24th, 32nd, 48th, 72nd, and 144th scale. All numbers that we can divide by 8. This allows Airfix's new 1/24th Mosquito (with 617 parts by the way!) to be exactly twice the size of a 1/48th Mosquito. If 1/72nd had been rounded off to 1/75th we wouldn't be able to make such a comparison."

I think dougie is on the right track when he said that all the aircraft scales can be divided by 8.  It was simply that in the early years of commercial model kits, (at least the ones that were mass marketed in the English speaking world and thus became well known, that they were all measured in inches and the full size item was measured in feet.  It's much easier to divide inches by 1/4, 1/8, etc. than it is to divide by 10s, and this also works out easily with a foot.

Even though metric is used in most places now and measurements divisible by 10 make more sense, the scale standard had already been set in the largest model-making countries of the time.
 
 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 03 Jan , 2010, 21:33
While I'm at it, there was another question posed early in 2009 that perhaps I can also shed more light on.

Sorry I can't find the original post (I have a VERY slow dial-up and it took me about 3 days to go through this thread the first time) but the question was regarding a couple of metal tanks on either side of the casing near the bow.  somebody was wondering what the tanks were for, and it was suggested that they might have been for a net-cutter that had since been removed.

I think there was also a comment that a couple of similar tangs further back had had the hole welded shut.

As a sailor myself for 30 years, I find it hard to believe that any seaman would weld closed a hole in anything without a strong reason.  Any holes serve as attachment points for all sorts of things in an emergency, such as heavy seas where they wanted to clip off a lifeline in a hurry.  So unless they HAD to be closed (in which case, while you had the equipment out why not just cut the tang right off?), the openings would still be there.

My quess is that the tangs might be attachment points for the handwire that goes from bow to stern on the stanchions when the boat is in harbour.  They'd simply clip on the wire at the bow and string it through all the removable stanchions until they get to the stern where there must be some other attachment points for the wire.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 03 Jan , 2010, 21:48
Sorry to post so often so close together, but I'd been saving them up until I reached the end of the thread in case somebody else came up with the answer I was going to give.

Another question had been asked about the "grapnels", the long poles attached at bow and stern of U-boats.

At least on the water and in marine supply stores, these "grapnels" look like what we call 'boat hooks'.  Most modern ones are made of lightweight aluminum tubing, semi-sealed so that if they fall in the water, they'll float for about 5-10 minutes, or enough time to hopefully retrieve them.

Older ones, (and by older I mean 30+ years) were made of wood for the same reason.  They wouldn't have been made of aluminum during the war because the aircraft industry needed all the aluminum it could get, so it wouldn't have been wasted on U-boats when wood would do.

This seems to be confirmed by the length of the boathook/grapne;s on the U-boats.  Modern ones telescope down to about 1-2 meters in length but stretch out to as long as you can handle.  Since wooden ones can't telescope, then they'd be made as long as possible right from the start.

Boathooks of course have all sorts of uses, but commonly are used to catch things floating on the surface (U-boats used to check garbage to see if they could learn anything about the ships they were hunting), catching and holding small boats that would come alongside (like inflatable rubber dinghys used to land operatives on shore), or men who had fallen overboard.

Modern boathooks have a straight point with a blunted tip and a curved, blunted hook underneath but I've seen variations on this in drawings of older boathooks, some with semicircles for the tips, some with Y-shaped ends, etc.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 03 Jan , 2010, 22:05
I might as well empty out all the things I've been saving up.

A while ago, Simon and Siara were debating about a couple of projections on either edge of the deck forward of the Turmembau (CT) near the large round hatch.

I'm not sure, but I think they're a variation on attachment points for the torpedo loading frame. 

Take a look at a book called "Kreigsmarine U-boats, 1939-45 Vol1", by Gordon Williamson, Osprey Publishing (sorry, I don't have a scanner) on page 39 there is a photo which shows something similar in that location on the stb side and slightly forward of it on the pt side.  Then on page 46 of the same book, there's a photo of men loading a torpedo through the deck hatch and the outside leg of the framework they're using is connected on the same point.

The only reason I can think of that the points might not be directly across from each other is that the torpedo loading hatch was slightly offset to stb and therefore the leg for the portside of the framework was longer and might have needed slightly different geometry for strength.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 03 Jan , 2010, 22:18
I thought of another one.  Sorry if I'm being a pest with so many posts right together.

There was another exchange between Siara and Simon earlier asking about placement of cleats along the deck and trying to get the exact points of attachment.

While things such as the trunking and decl hatches would be pretty standard from one boat to another (especially ones from the same yard), cleats are something that probably weren't specified so exactly by the government.  (Free flow holes are another and they vary considerably from one boat to another and from one year to another when the boat was built).

Just like the camouflage patterns were subject to the individual skipper's whim (although the colours available were standard, where they were applied was not), cleats are often welded or bolted to wherever the skipper felt a need and would probably be different from one boat to another.  Like the holes in the tangs, once attached, it would be unusual for a cleat to be removed, so a new boat might have fewer cleats than one that's been in service for a long time.

I've seen lots of class boats of different types where the hull was the same for every boat in the class but minor things like cleats could be found in different places on different boats.

Some cleats probably were in standard locations (the ones at the back edges of the CT just under the point where the rails attach) but ones along the side of the deck amidships might be in different locations depending where bollards were on shore or on the submarine tender ships like 'Black Watch' (the ship that looked after my U-boat).
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Jan , 2010, 23:07
Hi.  New member here.  Please excuse me if I screw up the proper format for posting since this is a new forum software that I'll have to learn how to use yet.

Welcome to the AMP Forum :)


I've been building a 1:72 scale U-boat and had been searching for trunking and piping detail under the casing, since it's all going to be accessible in my model, and when I found NZSnowman's drawings they just blew me away.  He's got exactly the data I've been looking for all this time and his drawings are terrific!!!!

Thank you for your kind words. I have enjoy doing the research and the drawing. I have start working on my 'Working Drawing' again http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=124.0 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=124.0)


NZSnowman asked: "I was laying in bed this morning and wondering why are the models 1:72 scale, why not 1:70 or 1:75 scale? Anyone know why 1:72 scale."

And dougie47 replied: "Aircraft model scales tend to be in 24th, 32nd, 48th, 72nd, and 144th scale. All numbers that we can divide by 8. This allows Airfix's new 1/24th Mosquito (with 617 parts by the way!) to be exactly twice the size of a 1/48th Mosquito. If 1/72nd had been rounded off to 1/75th we wouldn't be able to make such a comparison."

I think dougie is on the right track when he said that all the aircraft scales can be divided by 8.  It was simply that in the early years of commercial model kits, (at least the ones that were mass marketed in the English speaking world and thus became well known, that they were all measured in inches and the full size item was measured in feet.  It's much easier to divide inches by 1/4, 1/8, etc. than it is to divide by 10s, and this also works out easily with a foot.

Even though metric is used in most places now and measurements divisible by 10 make more sense, the scale standard had already been set in the largest model-making countries of the time.

Thanks for the additional information. I saw the the inches to a feet things....Long live the metric system ;D  ;)


Sorry I can't find the original post (I have a VERY slow dial-up and it took me about 3 days to go through this thread the first time).

I know what a very slow dial-up this like!!! A few years ago at the place I work, it would take about 5min to download a email - no joking!!!


but the question was regarding a couple of metal tanks on either side of the casing near the bow.  somebody was wondering what the tanks were for, and it was suggested that they might have been for a net-cutter that had since been removed.

I think there was also a comment that a couple of similar tangs further back had had the hole welded shut.

As a sailor myself for 30 years, I find it hard to believe that any seaman would weld closed a hole in anything without a strong reason.  Any holes serve as attachment points for all sorts of things in an emergency, such as heavy seas where they wanted to clip off a lifeline in a hurry.  So unless they HAD to be closed (in which case, while you had the equipment out why not just cut the tang right off?), the openings would still be there.

My quess is that the tangs might be attachment points for the handwire that goes from bow to stern on the stanchions when the boat is in harbour.  They'd simply clip on the wire at the bow and string it through all the removable stanchions until they get to the stern where there must be some other attachment points for the wire.

Post http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg1201#msg1201 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg1201#msg1201)

This is good thinking, about the attachment points. I think you are right about closing the openings, the holes would serve as great attachment points. Also I just look at the book U-995 by Eckard Wetzel http://cgi.ebay.de/U-995-Eckard-Wetzel_W0QQitemZ370313170051QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSach_Fachb%C3%BCcher?hash=item5638628c83 (http://cgi.ebay.de/U-995-Eckard-Wetzel_W0QQitemZ370313170051QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSach_Fachb%C3%BCcher?hash=item5638628c83) it look like U-995 never had a net-cutter  :-\


Another question had been asked about the "grapnels", the long poles attached at bow and stern of U-boats.

At least on the water and in marine supply stores, these "grapnels" look like what we call 'boat hooks'.  Most modern ones are made of lightweight aluminum tubing, semi-sealed so that if they fall in the water, they'll float for about 5-10 minutes, or enough time to hopefully retrieve them.

Older ones, (and by older I mean 30+ years) were made of wood for the same reason.  They wouldn't have been made of aluminum during the war because the aircraft industry needed all the aluminum it could get, so it wouldn't have been wasted on U-boats when wood would do.

This seems to be confirmed by the length of the boathook/grapne;s on the U-boats.  Modern ones telescope down to about 1-2 meters in length but stretch out to as long as you can handle.  Since wooden ones can't telescope, then they'd be made as long as possible right from the start.

Boathooks of course have all sorts of uses, but commonly are used to catch things floating on the surface (U-boats used to check garbage to see if they could learn anything about the ships they were hunting), catching and holding small boats that would come alongside (like inflatable rubber dinghys used to land operatives on shore), or men who had fallen overboard.

Modern boathooks have a straight point with a blunted tip and a curved, blunted hook underneath but I've seen variations on this in drawings of older boathooks, some with semicircles for the tips, some with Y-shaped ends, etc.

Again thanks for the additional information  :)


I might as well empty out all the things I've been saving up.

A while ago, Simon and Siara were debating about a couple of projections on either edge of the deck forward of the Turmembau (CT) near the large round hatch.

I'm not sure, but I think they're a variation on attachment points for the torpedo loading frame. 

Take a look at a book called "Kreigsmarine U-boats, 1939-45 Vol1", by Gordon Williamson, Osprey Publishing (sorry, I don't have a scanner) on page 39 there is a photo which shows something similar in that location on the stb side and slightly forward of it on the pt side.  Then on page 46 of the same book, there's a photo of men loading a torpedo through the deck hatch and the outside leg of the framework they're using is connected on the same point.

The only reason I can think of that the points might not be directly across from each other is that the torpedo loading hatch was slightly offset to stb and therefore the leg for the portside of the framework was longer and might have needed slightly different geometry for strength.

Pat, are you talking about these holes?

(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7458/new3pd1.jpg)


I thought of another one.  Sorry if I'm being a pest with so many posts right together.

There was another exchange between Siara and Simon earlier asking about placement of cleats along the deck and trying to get the exact points of attachment.

While things such as the trunking and decl hatches would be pretty standard from one boat to another (especially ones from the same yard), cleats are something that probably weren't specified so exactly by the government.  (Free flow holes are another and they vary considerably from one boat to another and from one year to another when the boat was built).

Just like the camouflage patterns were subject to the individual skipper's whim (although the colours available were standard, where they were applied was not), cleats are often welded or bolted to wherever the skipper felt a need and would probably be different from one boat to another.  Like the holes in the tangs, once attached, it would be unusual for a cleat to be removed, so a new boat might have fewer cleats than one that's been in service for a long time.

I've seen lots of class boats of different types where the hull was the same for every boat in the class but minor things like cleats could be found in different places on different boats.

Some cleats probably were in standard locations (the ones at the back edges of the CT just under the point where the rails attach) but ones along the side of the deck amidships might be in different locations depending where bollards were on shore or on the submarine tender ships like 'Black Watch' (the ship that looked after my U-boat).

Again thanks for the additional information  :) Also that U-Boat are you doing? My drawing is of U-1308, the last VIIC/41 build. It would be the height of VIIC's, it had all the newest U-boats toys like FuMT 1 Aphrodite, FuMT-2 Theti, Tarnmatte and Alberich. I will be add FuMO-61 Hohentwiel-U and a Schnorchel, I am unsure if U-1308 had these last two things as there is no document :( 



 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 04 Jan , 2010, 00:00

Simon, yes, this dial-up id driving me crazy.  I think there
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Jan , 2010, 01:11
Simon, yes, this dial-up id driving me crazy.  I think there
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 05 Jan , 2010, 17:02
Thanks for the suggestion but I don
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2010, 11:50
Thanks for the suggestion but I don
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2010, 22:26
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5143/updatel.png) Electrical System - Bow section of the Engine Room

(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6977/er2.th.jpg) (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/er2.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 08 Jan , 2010, 01:55
Very nice Simon.  I am using your drawings as on of the references while I build the Type VII interior by the way. ;)

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Jan , 2010, 02:10
Ernest, if you want to look at any other sections of the interior, let me know, as I can post you the latest drawing.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 08 Jan , 2010, 03:08
Thank you Simon, I'm working on the galley/PO quarter at present.  If you have any drawings of that area I would be glad to have them at my fingertips so to speak.

Ernest

Ernest, if you want to look at any other sections of the interior, let me know, as I can post you the latest drawing.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Jan , 2010, 13:00
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1051/galley.th.jpg) (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/galley.jpg/)

I have not research that the original colour (sorry color for you other people  ;) ;D ) of the galley. Would be nice to know that is the original colour was.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Sniperonzolo on 08 Jan , 2010, 13:41
woooof NZ!!!!
looks fantastic!!!
ps why u looks like a sailor in your pics???
do i see your face around regattas?

ceers
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 08 Jan , 2010, 16:13
Thank you Simon.  The galley was painted the same interior color as the rest of the uboot.  The upper portion, the part above the blue in your drawing was painted RAL9001, which was an ivory white tone.  The lower hull, the blue in your drawing, was RAL 9002 Greywhite.

Ernest

(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1051/galley.th.jpg) (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/galley.jpg/)

I have not research that the original colour (sorry color for you other people  ;) ;D ) of the galley. Would be nice to know that is the original colour was.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 09 Jan , 2010, 08:41
Simon, it's not that I haven't been trying to post those pix for you, but when I tried to sign up to the hosting site, it all went well until the end.  The confirmation email didn't come.

I still haven't received the confirmation email so that I can get started and when I tried a second time, it said that it already had another member with that email so I couldn't register again.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 09 Jan , 2010, 08:51
Does anybody know what the colour of the deck in U-boats? 

Looking in through the main CT hatch, the deck, ladder and some of the equip on the bulkheads will be visible in my model. 

Photos of the inside of U-995 show the bulkheads as white as well as most of the piping and wiring, with the equipment being various colours depending on use and wheels being either red or black.  The ladder is black, although I've seen it bare metal in other sources and white in still others.

But I don't recal seeing anything about the deck.

Anybody have other information?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 09 Jan , 2010, 11:35
Hi Pat, the interior decks were painted RAL 9002 Grauweiss, with exceptions for things like the walkway between the engines which was left plain metal.  UbootWaffe painting orders were for the upper part of the inner hull to be painted RAL 9003 Signalweiss; however, the color was actually much closer to RAL 9001 Elfenbeinweiss.  You right about ladders being painted different colors; it seems they were often painted at the discretion of the uboat commander.

Ernest     

Does anybody know what the colour of the deck in U-boats? 

Looking in through the main CT hatch, the deck, ladder and some of the equip on the bulkheads will be visible in my model. 

Photos of the inside of U-995 show the bulkheads as white as well as most of the piping and wiring, with the equipment being various colours depending on use and wheels being either red or black.  The ladder is black, although I've seen it bare metal in other sources and white in still others.

But I don't recal seeing anything about the deck.

Anybody have other information?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Jan , 2010, 11:53
Does anybody know what the colour of the deck in U-boats?  

Looking in through the main CT hatch, the deck, ladder and some of the equip on the bulkheads will be visible in my model.  

Photos of the inside of U-995 show the bulkheads as white as well as most of the piping and wiring, with the equipment being various colours depending on use and wheels being either red or black.  The ladder is black, although I've seen it bare metal in other sources and white in still others.

But I don't recal seeing anything about the deck.

Anybody have other information?

There are very few pictures of the original deck of U-995, or I think most of the original deck of U-995 has been replace over time. The few pictures I have seen of the original deck are in the Galley, CT and Engine room, In the Galley it is painted black however, unsure if it was painted black by the Kriegsmarine or the Royal Norwegian Navy. The other place I have seen good pictures the original deck of U-995 was in the CT, here is also painted black, with small drain holes (about 20mm). All the deck plate had the same deck plate pattern.  

It looks like Ernest got the right answer for you  :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Jan , 2010, 12:05
Simon, it's not that I haven't been trying to post those pix for you, but when I tried to sign up to the hosting site, it all went well until the end.  The confirmation email didn't come.

I still haven't received the confirmation email so that I can get started and when I tried a second time, it said that it already had another member with that email so I couldn't register again.

I know how you are feeling, I hate it when confirmation email didn't come >:( The only thing I can think of that this time is to go to the Login page and click the 'Forgot Password' link, they may send you a new one.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Jan , 2010, 21:59
Thanks for the information Greif. I had a look at my U-995 by Eckard Wetzel and there one picture of the galley and it painted in RAL9001 & RAL 9002 :)

Thank you Simon.  The galley was painted the same interior color as the rest of the uboot.  The upper portion, the part above the blue in your drawing was painted RAL9001, which was an ivory white tone.  The lower hull, the blue in your drawing, was RAL 9002 Greywhite.

Ernest

(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1051/galley.th.jpg) (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/galley.jpg/)

I have not research that the original colour (sorry color for you other people  ;) ;D ) of the galley. Would be nice to know that is the original colour was.


Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Jan , 2010, 12:16
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/214/helpq.png)

Does anyone know if the keel of the Type VII is solid or made up of frames?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 24 Jan , 2010, 14:34
       Simon...I do recall seeing some photos of the keel, Sorry I don't recall where, but they were of hatches/access doors that were open on the keel.
                  Inside were large blocks of ballast, probably iron or steel.
                                                   Cheers/Regards..Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Jan , 2010, 18:23
Yes, I have also see this picture and also can't recall where, but I think it was a Type IX. I seen and have a few good pictures of the keels of the Type IX but I never seen in detail a Type VII keel :( That is why I was thinking it maybe solid :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 25 Jan , 2010, 15:52
same for me, sure I've seen a pic. I THINK it's solid (or solid from big chunks) for weight.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 27 Jan , 2010, 21:54
Just a guess, but the standard material for ballast keels is lead.  They want the heaviest but cheapest material they can get to take up the least amount of space while lowering the centre of gravity so the boat rolls less.  It would definitely not be iron as that would corrode too quickly, and not likely steel because it isn't heavy enough and they need it more elsewhere.

If there are access hatches to the keel, that sounds like they might want to at least inspect it once in a while for corrosion and to clean out the limber holes so that any water will drain to a sump where it can be pumped out.  The limber holes on many ships often have a small chain running for and aft that could be pulled to drag out any gunk that got stuck in the holes, blocking the free flow of water.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Jan , 2010, 23:07
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/214/helpq.png)

While looking at the keel of U-995, I noted 3 small holes in the Pressure Hull. There are over 80 holes in Pressure Hull in the Control Room. I was wondering what other people think about these small holes are for :-\ Could they be used for the Depth gauges or Speed indicator ???, or just for a sigin ;D

(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7328/holes.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Jan , 2010, 01:37
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/214/helpq.png)

Lime-water was used as a acid neutralizing system for the battery compartments. To make lime water was it made with fresh water or can it be made with sea water?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Jan , 2010, 15:55
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5143/updatel.png)Drainage System

Step 1: Engine Room Drainage System (in red) from Design and Specification Books, Volume M, a original German plans from U-570.
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4723/pipe1n.th.jpg) (http://img11.imageshack.us/i/pipe1n.jpg/)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate6.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate6.htm)

Step 2: Original German plans.
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6218/pipe3i.th.jpg) (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/pipe3i.jpg/) (http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5193/pipe2il.th.jpg) (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/pipe2il.jpg/)

Step 3: My Drawing
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4301/pipe4.th.jpg) (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/pipe4.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 31 Jan , 2010, 11:34
Snowman, I don't know what the holes are, but one of them probably somehow does work for depth.  Extremely unlikely to be for speed though.

A depth guage would work by letting water into a tube wich would somehow move a float or liquid in a calibrated tube.  Not sure how this happens since any sight tube made of glass would break if the pressure got to be too much.  However, at 200 meters, I think the pressure would be approx 300 psi, and maybe glass can take that if it's thick enough.  (1 atmos = 14 psi    every 30 ft in depth adds another atmos  1 meter = 39"          so 200m = 7800" divided by 12 = 650 feet divided by 30 = 21 atmospheres times 14 psi = 303 psi)

The way a boats speeometer works in most cases is that there's a small paddlewheel in a little depression in the side of the hull, in an area where the flow of water is not disturbed by propellers or rudders.  (or dive planes)  The paddles stick out only a fraction of an inch into the flow, but enough that the passing water spins it.

One of the paddles has a small magnet on it and every revolution, the magnet passes another magnet on the inside of the hull and causes it to register.  The number of turns per second gives you the speed.

There's also some speedometers that work somewhat like an aircraft pitot tube, but that requires a hole in the very bow of the boat facing forward.  The holes you show are on the side.

There will also be holes somewhere near the engine room since the diesels would be water-cooled.  Even with a radiator, (which is typical of salt-water boats) the heat has to go somewhere.  This is done by raw sea water going through a heat-exchanger at the radiator, and the raw water gets ejected mixed with the diesel exhaust to cool the muffler and exhaust pipes as well, while the radiator coolant is kept in a closed system with the engine itself.

Usually the raw water intake hole will look like a small blister on the side of the boat with holes in it to strain out any seaweed or marine organisms.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Jan , 2010, 12:16
While read your reply I just remember seeing something similar on a Type XXI plan, I checked it out.

Pat, I think you are heading in right direction with the holes....On the Type XXI plan were are three small holes in the identical line, size and position on the U-boat (Starboard only and opponent the control station). On this plan they are label
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 31 Jan , 2010, 15:35
Snowman, that hole you point out on the side of the hull is almost definitely raw seawater inlet for the engines.  That's the same style that is used on ships today and it's in the right location and seems about the right size that I'd expect for that size diesel.

Probably there is also one on the other side for the port engine, although they could use just one.

BTW, the paddle wheel for the speedometer doesn't need to be large.  The entire thing may be no more than about an inch or two at the most in diameter, aand a little less deep since it needs perhaps 1/8" or 1/4" sticking out.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Jan , 2010, 20:06
I know the inlet and and valve are at the right location! ;D As the opening is at 24,800 mm from the stern and 2,100 mm above the keel. This match the inside valve, right on!!

Also you right there is also a inlet opening on the Port side of the boat.

Thanks for the information about the paddle wheel for the speedometer. I will have a look at my pictures and I hope I can find it.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 01 Feb , 2010, 07:01
Unfortunately, there's no sort of standard location where the paddlewheel might be, other than at least far enough under water that it won't be affected by wave action.

They mostly seem to be near the keel, but I've seen them higher up.  Lengthwise, they could be anywhere from near the bow (far enough back not to be affected by plunging into the waves) to just before they'd get interference from the propellers and rudders.

The one thing to think of is that they will be in a somewhat protected place, so that they don't get damaged by rubbing up against docks or fenders.

They're often a differnt colour than the hull, since they can't be painted with anti-fouling paint because that might throw them off.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Feb , 2010, 11:09
Thanks again for the information. My initial search was very narrow area of the pressure hull. I will widen my search of the hull  :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 01 Feb , 2010, 14:46
Another question.

What are the rectangular patches in the saddle tank just above and to the right of the raw water inlet?  I know the water goes in via a square grill further forward, but those patches have me babbled.  They don't seem to open up.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Feb , 2010, 17:25
Another question.

What are the rectangular patches in the saddle tank just above and to the right of the raw water inlet?  I know the water goes in via a square grill further forward, but those patches have me babbled.  They don't seem to open up.

They are the water intake for the Saddle tanks :)  Check out a working drawing from U-570 (Lower middle picture) http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate28.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate28.htm)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 05 Feb , 2010, 04:02
Hello Snowman

I've got question - what did you pattern after, when you were drawing torpedo tubes installations (pipes, rods etc)?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 05 Feb , 2010, 06:32
Snowman, I had another look at your photo of Jan 31, showing the raw seawater cooling inlet, and there's a small bump just above the inlet.  I wonder if that's the paddlewheel opening, just covered over for preservation reasons?  It looks possibly about the right size, and appears to project about the right amount.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Feb , 2010, 11:16
Hello Snowman

I've got question - what did you pattern after, when you were drawing torpedo tubes installations (pipes, rods etc)?

The first time I drawn the torpedo tubes installations it was base on Anatomy of the ship - The Type VII U-Boat by David Westwood, a few original pictures taken during the war and pictures from U-995. It not very detail but it was the best I could do that the time.

I am planning to completely redraw the whole bow torpedo section & torpedo tubes, as over the last year or so I have collection some great pictures, plans and things. I think the next drawing should be a heap more detail. I am sure it will show all the pipes and working parts  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Feb , 2010, 11:55
Snowman, I had another look at your photo of Jan 31, showing the raw seawater cooling inlet, and there's a small bump just above the inlet.  I wonder if that's the paddlewheel opening, just covered over for preservation reasons?  It looks possibly about the right size, and appears to project about the right amount.

Hi Pat, It could be the opening for the paddle-wheel......but to tell you the truth I have no idea that a paddle-wheel for a speedometer look like :(. I just been looking for something different on the hull. However, I have been looking for something a lot smaller.
Below are the best pictures I have of this area. One is of the outside of the hull and the other is from the inside. I am almost sure that those pipes and fixer are the fixer from the other side. Does this look like a speedometer system ??? 

I have two other questions for you; Would you put the paddle-wheel so near to a inlet ??? Also would you put the paddle-wheel in the Engine Room or Control Room section ???

(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6997/inlet.jpg) (http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4552/new2d.jpg)

Pictures from U-995 http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 05 Feb , 2010, 12:35
The first time I drawn the torpedo tubes installations it was base on Anatomy of the ship - The Type VII U-Boat by David Westwood, a few original pictures taken during the war and pictures from U-995. It not very detail but it was the best I could do that the time.

I have seen this picture - it's the best drawing I have seen till now (unfortunately, I didn't have seen many of them). The same is
in Urlich Gabler's "Submarine Design", and I think that the latter is more correct subtitled.

Quote from: NZSnowman
I am planning to completely redraw the whole bow torpedo section & torpedo tubes, as over the last year or so I have collection some great pictures, plans and things. I think the next drawing should be a heap more detail. I am sure it will show all the pipes and working parts  ;D

I'm specially interested in the interolocking and firing rod details. Is it possible that you would share some of these details before your work will complete?

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 05 Feb , 2010, 14:48
Ok, on looking at the closeup snowman, it doesn
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Feb , 2010, 19:35
The first time I drawn the torpedo tubes installations it was base on Anatomy of the ship - The Type VII U-Boat by David Westwood, a few original pictures taken during the war and pictures from U-995. It not very detail but it was the best I could do that the time.

I have seen this picture - it's the best drawing I have seen till now (unfortunately, I didn't have seen many of them). The same is
in Urlich Gabler's "Submarine Design", and I think that the latter is more correct subtitled.

Quote from: NZSnowman
I am planning to completely redraw the whole bow torpedo section & torpedo tubes, as over the last year or so I have collection some great pictures, plans and things. I think the next drawing should be a heap more detail. I am sure it will show all the pipes and working parts  ;D

I'm specially interested in the interolocking and firing rod details. Is it possible that you would share some of these details before your work will complete?

--
Regards
Maciek

Happy to post any pictures of the new drawing, unsure when I will start them, but they are a area I am keen to redraw.

Had you check out these pages, they maybe useful.

(These 3 pages have be translated in to English)

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=es_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.u-historia.com%2fuhistoria%2ftecnico%2fvisitaguiada%2ftzr%2ftzr.htm (http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=es_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.u-historia.com%2fuhistoria%2ftecnico%2fvisitaguiada%2ftzr%2ftzr.htm)
http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=es_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.u-historia.com%2fuhistoria%2ftecnico%2fvisitaguiada%2fproa%2fproa.htm (http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=es_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.u-historia.com%2fuhistoria%2ftecnico%2fvisitaguiada%2fproa%2fproa.htm)
http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=es_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.u-historia.com%2fuhistoria%2ftecnico%2fvisitaguiada%2fpopa%2fpopa.htm (http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=es_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.u-historia.com%2fuhistoria%2ftecnico%2fvisitaguiada%2fpopa%2fpopa.htm)

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate25.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate25.htm)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Feb , 2010, 19:53
You
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 05 Feb , 2010, 23:11
Actually, it's amazing how little water a diesel on a boat needs.  Keep in mind that in a closed system (like a car with a radiator), the coolent is recycled over and over again and so it gets hot, sometimes boiling hot as you might be familiar with if you've ever had a rad cap leak.

But with a boat, it's a constant supply of fresh, cool water, in the ocean, usually never more than about 16 degrees C.  So it doesn't need a lot. 

While the engine in my boat is admittedly a lot smaller than those of a U-boat, it just uses a trickle of water, no more than a cup or two a minute, even at top speed.

Also, diesels run cooler than gasoline engines.  I can always rest my hand on the engine block of the diesel in my boat.  But I wouldn't attempt that with my gasoline driven car.  I once by accident grabbed the exhaust of my bike and am I ever glad I was wearing leather work gloves.  I had to toss the gloves out, once I ripped them off the pipes.

The wires I was talking about are the connection between the paddlewheel and the knotmeter gauge.  The paddlewheel is where the speed of the boat is measured, but there has to be a connection between that and the gauge.  That connection is electrical, not mechanical like a car.  The magnets in the paddlewheel just send impulses to the remote gauge.  So yes, I guess you'd say that the paddlewheel (or more correctly the magnets in the wheel and the boat) create a current that is read by the gauge.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2010, 01:14
I was thinking that the connection between the paddle wheel and the knot meter gauge was a cable that was why I thought it would be located as near to the control room :-[ If it is electrical it could be anywhere. I will need to recheck all my pictures again.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 06 Feb , 2010, 15:26
Hello

I think that speedometer was not kind of paddlewheel.
Accodring to Underwater Log System section in Design Study Type IXC
http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm
that was a kind of Pitot Tube.

The 'dynamic pressure' inlets were at bow section (red arrow) as at this photo of U-54 on launching day,
(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8150/adafadfae.jpg)
the 'static pressure' - at midship - maybe it is where Simon marked.

The main device was in forward bulkhead of Control Room, at steering station
(http://u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/visitaguiada/central/correderadepuradoraire.jpg)
(photo from U-historia.com).

Note please the piping above speedometer - it looks like described in Design Study.

The principle of operation is shown on my simple drawing.
(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7237/log2y.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 06 Feb , 2010, 16:04
That's a REALLY bad location for any sort of instrument like speed.

Firstly, in rough weather, the bow of almost all ships frequently sticks out of the water, so no speed measurement taken.  When the next wave hits, the bow plunges down into the water - hard, and could damage instrumentation and the plunging would give a false high speed.

When the torpedo outer door is opened, it would change the water flow and therefore the speed measure.  Just when it's needed most to input into the targetting computer.

Being at the cutwater (the pointy part of the stem) means that any floating logs or wreckage can hit it and damage it.  Even weeds could jam into it and plug it up.

It also needs an outlet not far behind it.  Otherwise, the water gets in, can't get out and no speed is registered. 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 06 Feb , 2010, 16:26
Quote
It also needs an outlet not far behind it.  Otherwise, the water gets in, can't get out and no speed is registered. 

I don't think that Pitot Tube needs outlet - As far I know it needs two inlets to compare static and dynamic pressure.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2010, 21:40
Thanks Maciek, The pictures and information is fantastic!!

I had seen the Underwater Log System (No 8) but did not put things together  ::)

I had also seen Design Study Type IXC but have not thought about search it for information. I read the Underwater Log System section. It great to know how the speedometer work now. I recheck my pictures but I could not find the Pitot Tube on any of my Type VII bow. This started me thinking that maybe they used a different system on the Type VIIC's. I check some pictures of Type IX bows and found the Pitot Tube (See below U-534). I also recheck the information about openings in the pressure hull for Type VIIC and there nothing about a opening for the speedometer system in the bow :-\

I wonder if they change the speedometer system for the Type VIIC ??? 

(http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3779/new3bo.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Feb , 2010, 01:04
I wonder if they change the speedometer system for the Type VIIC ??? 

I also wonder, why these nozzles are clearly visible only on few photos.
I think, that the system (Fahrtme
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Feb , 2010, 02:23
Maciek, would changing the location of the inlets affect the speedometer? Would shipyard need to reset system (e.g. does the length of the pipe affect the speedometer?)

Why do you think the shipyard would feel the need to change the location?

I tried to check the bow of U-995 but the whole bow of U-995 as be replace  :(
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Feb , 2010, 03:33
Maciek, would changing the location of the inlets affect the speedometer? Would shipyard need to reset system (e.g. does the length of the pipe affect the speedometer?)

In the Design Study is written, that speedometer had to be calibrated to the each
hull shape, so I think that inlets position should affect the installation.

Quote
Why do you think the shipyard would feel the need to change the location?
I tried to check the bow of U-995 but the whole bow of U-995 as be replace  :(

It's my guessing, why these inlets are so hard to locate.
As I wrote above, these could be installed ones a little higher, ones a little lower,
ones as a sticking out pipes, ones as a little holes in outside casing.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 07 Feb , 2010, 07:12
That makes sense that the pickup could be in different places in different boats.  We already know that different shipyards had different patterns of drainage holes from each other and even from one year to the next, and knotmeter pickups could be the same.

Even the type of instrument could differ from one boat to another as they'd use whatever was available at the time.  Modern boats are not necessarily the same.  There are 3 boats the same as mine in my YC, and each of them have different spars and slightly different rigging.  Mine has 1 dorade over the head, another has 2 in the saloon, another has none.  One has 6 opening portholes, mine has none, the other has just 2.  The blocks and mainsheet traveller are different for each boat, and often the manufacturer of cleats and blocks are different for each boat.  So are the instruments.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Jooy on 07 Feb , 2010, 16:21


   Well, hi to everyone...  I'm a novice in your forum and I'd like starting telling this crazy thing:   ::)

   I've been giving rounds in my mind to build slowly (I'm not in a hurry... ), a U-boat in scale 1/6 for my soldiers, and althought I'm conscious it may be a suicide idea, I wouldn't like to leave at least without trying it before...
   Over all, I had thought for solving the problem of the large size of the length (we would be talking about almost 11 meters), I'd made it by parts: 6 parts of 1,5m and the last: the middle in 2m.   
    Anyway, all these ideas are focus to the same idea: to build an u-boat in scale 1/6...  and I was wondering if someone could help me get some decent levels but then had to expand or something similar.

    That's all... Thanks in advance.    ;)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Feb , 2010, 22:41
Check this out ;D

http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/KRAKA.htm (http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/KRAKA.htm)

http://www.vimeo.com/976560

http://ing.dk/artikel/89591 (http://ing.dk/artikel/89591)



   Well, hi to everyone...  I'm a novice in your forum and I'd like starting telling this crazy thing:   ::)

   I've been giving rounds in my mind to build slowly (I'm not in a hurry... ), a U-boat in scale 1/6 for my soldiers, and althought I'm conscious it may be a suicide idea, I wouldn't like to leave at least without trying it before...
   Over all, I had thought for solving the problem of the large size of the length (we would be talking about almost 11 meters), I'd made it by parts: 6 parts of 1,5m and the last: the middle in 2m.   
    Anyway, all these ideas are focus to the same idea: to build an u-boat in scale 1/6...  and I was wondering if someone could help me get some decent levels but then had to expand or something similar.

    That's all... Thanks in advance.    ;)


Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 07 Feb , 2010, 23:45
NZ -that top link is WOW!!! thanks! many folks here would share that dream I'm sure!

Jooy - it IS possible. Someone near me has started building a full scale Spitfire. keep us posted. When you say "get some decent levels" what do you mean?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Feb , 2010, 00:50
NZ -that top link is WOW!!! thanks! many folks here would share that dream I'm sure!

Jooy - it IS possible. Someone near me has started building a full scale Spitfire. keep us posted. When you say "get some decent levels" what do you mean?

Yes it a fantastic build...I watch the build a few years ago...had forgotten about it til today 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Feb , 2010, 01:48
Hi Maciek

In this picture you can see the Pitot Tube right on the bow line.

(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5474/new1vg.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Jooy on 09 Feb , 2010, 04:57

   Yeah, these links are  really incredible !!!   Perhaps I wasn't too ambitious...  I had thought building it by parts, with the idea of making easier to transport at the end of the proyect...  But I could only let to build a model proyect, not a real one... It should be very expensive...
    Well, first I should try to get some plans more bigger than a 1/72 scale if what I want is to build a 1/6 one...  Maybe this is the next step...

   Anyway, all this post is really amazing... I'm reading slowly and learning a lot on it... Thanks a lot for your comments.   ;)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 09 Feb , 2010, 17:52
Simon, what is it that you think is the pitot tube in that picture?

I see what might be some sort of flat opening on the bow line, with a ring in front of it.  The ring would change the water flow and thus the readout. 

Also, the bow of a sub on the surface, unless it's very calm water, will be diving up and down, in and out of the water.  I've been on boats even with waves only about a meter, that going the right direction, the bow came out of the water so much one second I was looking down about 4 meters to the water surface, and a couple of seconds later the water was up to my waist as the bow plunged.  That would also mess up the readings. 

Finally, that's a fairly small ring protecting whatever that is.  It wouldn't take a very big log or bit of ship's wreckage to bash it in when the bow plunged down onto it.  The front of a boat is not nearly as protected from obstacles as the leading edle of an aircraft, since the water is not compressible and gives a lot of backing to whatever force gets delivered to the bow from a floating obstacle.

Not saying that it's not a measuring device of some sort, but if it was, that location would most likely be experimental and not a regular location.


The one that looked more possible was a picture that somebody posted recently that showed a vertical gap between two hull plates set back perhaps 1/2-1 meter from the bow.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Feb , 2010, 18:59
No. 1 is the S-Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Feb , 2010, 00:52
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5143/updatel.png) Engine Room Piping

(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2858/new1z.th.jpg) (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/new1z.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 10 Feb , 2010, 06:25
Simon, my crappy computer is striking again.

The picture is coming through so poorly here that I can't see anything at #2.  Just a joint between two hull plates maybe.  #1 and #3 do show up.

And this session, the picture for the engine room piping isn't opening up either.  Perhaps the next time I log on.  (Last night, I couldn't even get into the website)

But anyway, as I've said, the cutwater is a poor place to put any sort of speed measuring device, for several reasons.  It's just a slight improvement on putting it at the stern around the propellers and dive planes.  It won't give an accurate reading at the stem and if a boat was to spend any time on the surface, in cloudy weather where they can't take a sextant sighting, then it could throw them off course.  It can't be a standard location.  I'll go with a pitot tube type measuring device, but not there other than experimental on a few boats.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 13 Feb , 2010, 09:20
Hello Simon


In this picture you can see the Pitot Tube right on the bow line.


Thanks for the photo.

Quote from: Pat

But anyway, as I've said, the cutwater is a poor place to put any sort of speed measuring device, for several reasons.  It's just a slight improvement on putting it at the stern around the propellers and dive planes.  It won't give an accurate reading at the stem and if a boat was to spend any time on the surface, in cloudy weather where they can't take a sextant sighting, then it could throw them off course.  It can't be a standard location.  I'll go with a pitot tube type measuring device, but not there other than experimental on a few boats.


I've checked in "Submarine Design" by Urlich Gabler (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_Gabler) that pitometer log of that type was used as standard device. I've also some records describing Fahrtme
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Feb , 2010, 11:11
Thanks Maciek for the additional information :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Feb , 2010, 15:58
Hi Maciek,

That last held true into the 1960s in the USN. My 2nd Dad was a young Lt in 1957 on Grouper, and later worked at a living hisotry museum of the 1600s (Mayflower II in Plymouth Massachusetts, USA), where he used a quadrant (not even a sextant yet in 1620). He said the 1600s navigation was pretty close to his 1950s nav. Shooting the sun and stars the old fashioned way!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 19 Feb , 2010, 01:17
This is a Gato, but has some good general sub speed log info.

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/log/chap1.htm (http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/log/chap1.htm)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Feb , 2010, 01:57
Thanks for the additional information :) I will read it after I come back from my field work this week.

I was wondering have you seen any information for either magnetic or gyro compass for the Gato? I been looking for information for the U-boat but not having much luck :(

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 19 Feb , 2010, 03:49
I am NO expert, but belive both navies had similar - a gyro for the "real" cource, and mag as well, and repeaters. What did you need to know?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 19 Feb , 2010, 10:57
Yes, pretty much all navies used gyrocompasses, and since the technology was invented in (1885, 1908, 1911 depending on source), it was well out of patent and the primary mechanism was known by all nations by the time of WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocompass

"The gyrocompass was patented in 1885 by the Dutch Marinus Gerardus van den Bos; however, his device never worked properly. In 1889, Captain Arthur Krebs designed an electric pendular gyroscope for the experimental French submarine Gymnote. It allowed the Gymnote to force a naval blockade in 1890. In 1903, the German Hermann Ansch
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Feb , 2010, 13:11
rokket & Pat thanks for the information  :)

Was after anything information that this time, as I would like to add them both to my drawing.

I am reading U-Boat 977 by Schaeffer, Heinz and he said that while a depth charge attack the gyro-compass came out of it housing and across the Control Room at 10,000 rpm :D

Has anyone else read this book?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 19 Feb , 2010, 22:14
As a side note - and it might have been mentioned and I didn't see it - magnetic north is not true north, and it varies. The VIICs had a mighty big compass in the boot at the foot of the fairwater, but now that I'm pressed, I can't say if it's mag or gryo...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Feb , 2010, 22:39
The 'mag' is at the foot of the fairwater (I must say I had to look up 'Fairwater' ;D) & the gryo is in the Control Room next to the Attack Periscope Shaft (below red outline).

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/211/img6609sk.jpg)
Picture from U-995 http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 20 Feb , 2010, 22:24
I couldn't find 'fairwater' referring to subs, but isn't that the bulge in the front of the CT?  (At least when referring to the gyrocompass - there can be many fairwaters on a boat)  I'd thought the gyro was inside the fairwater but according to Snowman's pic, it's inside the control room.  Is one of them a repeater?

Yes, rokket, you're correct.  Magnetic north is not true north.  The difference between them is called "variation" and it changes depending on what part of the world you're in at the time.  Not only is it different because of geometry, but also there are large deposits of magnetic ore in some places of the world (there's a big hill in New Brusnwick, Canada for instance where the magnetism is enough to move a car) and there are also parts of the world (one I know of is east of the southern tip of Africa) where the magnetic compass is unreliable.

BTW, variation also changes with time, so that all nautical charts have a record on them of the year printed and the current rate and direction of variation.  You have to make a calculation by date and location both to offset the compass.

But the reason magnetic compasses are almost useless on steel-hulled boats is because of 'deviation', which is where the mass of metal on the boat throws off the compass even more.  There is a process called "swinging the compass", whereby you take the boat out to a known position that can be checked by triangulating shore references, and then go in a tight circle, all the while taking compass readings on a fixed point on shore and recording how it deviates from what it should be depending on what direction the boat is facing.   (and also taking into account the variation previously noted).

Even small bits of metal close enough to the compass can change it, like a battery driven watch or a pair of steel-framed eyeglasses in the case of hand-bearing compasses.  The engine of course is a huge mass of metal, but then also, there's more metal fore and aft of a compass then there is to either side, so the deviation changes accordingly.

Navigation is a very complex process (until GPS came along).  I did well to never be off more than 1/4 km on any trip I've been on, but then, I've never sailed more than 200 NM in any one direction either.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 21 Feb , 2010, 00:54
Good Pic, NZ!  Good info, Pat. I wasn't sure if the variation was set for a time or not, but I do remember seeing dates or "changes XXX degper year" on some charts now that you mention it. Hey, great navigating, too!
Here's a link to a pic of a binnacle with small magnets either side to overcome the magnetic deviation:
(http://www.acecrc.sipex.aq/access/media/library/view?mediaItem=480&v=MediaItem)

I don't know how they compensate the small floaty mag compasses small boats use, but do know the bulby indicator is "backwards" in that the reading is made easier for the helmsman (heading N the "N" is at 6-o'clock, S at Noon, rather than other way, because often viewed from side/edge and not top-down). Interesting stuff.

"Fairwater" - I was being nitpicky, sorry. On a WWII sub (or at least in USN talk) it is the only real exposed part, the superstructure, the bridge.  Post-WWII it is called a "sail". Often it is incorrectly called "conning tower", and I have done it myself. But technically, the CT is ONLY the pressure-hull inside, not the outer superstructure.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 21 Feb , 2010, 07:13
Ah, thanks for the correction on "conning tower" rocket.   :)  This forum is great for learning something new almost every time I log in.

Yeah, navigating across the water is a lot more complicated than on land.  True vs magnetic north, variation and deviation are just the beginning of the navigation courses I took and actually some of the easiest parts of it.  I still have 2 years to go to get the celestial nav part down, but since I've only sailed on the ocean within about 50 miles of the continent, I don't think I need those.  After all, even if I got lost, just head west and I'm bound to find N. America eventually, right?

BTW, the two balls in your pic are called "Flinder's balls" after Cap't Matthew Flinder, who was the one who invented the idea.  They're made of soft ferro-magnetic iron, and they're mounted on little slots in the arms ao they can be slid in and out.  You'll only find them on the binnacles of steel hilled ships, even in WWI torpedo destroyers, dreadnaughts, monitors, etc. (all these interesting types that we no longer have) so if you ever do a model of a tall ship, make sure you know what the hull was made of (or in the case of a ship like say, Cutty Sark, where the hull was wood but the frame was steel, so it would have had Flinder's balls).

Anyway, how they work is that as I'd mentioned before, in a steel hulled ship, there's more mass of metal lengthwise along the direction of the keep than there is athwartships, and that means the compass deviation is greater when the keel is lined up with magnetic north than when it's pointing east or west.  The Flinder's balls compensate for this by adding to the metal abeam of the compass, but they're placed much closer to the compass so even though small, their affect is greater.

Note also that the post in your binnacle picture is wood.  You don't get metal binnacles until more modern times when aluminum became sheap enough to make binnacles out of that.  I think some old ships might have had brass binnacles, but that would be a rarity.

My own boat haas an aluminum one but I made a teak covering for it to make it look reminiscent of the old style in your picture (only a LOT smaller!)

Oh yeah, the reading being backward in the binnacle you see would be specific to the design of that particular ship because of where the helmsman was expected to stand for whatever reason.  Some are backwards, most are regular.  Most mag compasses have different posts and markings on them to help read the direction from different positions around the compass, depending on where the helmsman is standing at the time.  On my own boat, the entire top is clear, like a snow globe, so I can read it from 360 degrees around.  About half the time, I wouldn't be standing directly behind because if the boat is heeling, it's just too uncomfortable so the helmsman might sit off in the corner to one side or the other where he has a backrest and cushions and better visibility forward around the mast.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 22 Feb , 2010, 00:55
Flinders balls - I'm sure there were no jokes about that! Very cool. I never thought of the keel, but makes sense. Your teak cover sounds lovely Pat! You have to get some pix posted of all kinds of things!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 23 Feb , 2010, 08:00
Yes, I'm sure there was a joke or two going around about Matt Flinder's balls.

Flinder's balls haven't disappeared on modern marine compasses either BTW.  They've just shrunk (again, I'm sure there are comments there too) and moved internally. If you take the cover off a modern compass, there are usually two small pieces of ferrous iron on slides that can be adjusted the same way as the big balls that the old tall ships sailors had on their binnacles.  (I just KNOW what's going through your mind now)

The modern ones are smaller I think because magnets can be smaller through better methods of making them with perhaps purer iron.

BTW, the teak sheathing on my binnacle (hey, no more jokes here please) aren't fastened on.  I didn't want to take the chance of interfering with the mechanisms inside the binnacle.  (The gearshift, throttle control, steering cables and compass lighting all go through a very narrow tube).  I drilled holes in the teak planks and then lashed them on with small line and covered the lashings with Turk's Head knots so that it looks fancy, but can be removed with a flick of a sharp knife if needed. 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2010, 18:05
I couldn't find 'fairwater' referring to subs, but isn't that the bulge in the front of the CT?  (At least when referring to the gyrocompass - there can be many fairwaters on a boat)  I'd thought the gyro was inside the fairwater but according to Snowman's pic, it's inside the control room.  Is one of them a repeater?

Just come back from 4 days field work counting grasshoppers ;D It's what I study in the summer.

Pat, the bulge in the front of the CT is the magnetic compass, however, there is a second gyrocompass in the U-Boat but I am unsure where. 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 25 Feb , 2010, 06:02
however, there is a second gyrocompass in the U-Boat but I am unsure where. 

According to U-570 British Report
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm
and Type IXC Desing Study
http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm
on boats type VIIC and IXC were set of one magnetic compass and
one gyro compass (Anschutz type).

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Feb , 2010, 12:24
Hi Maciek

Thanks for the additional links :)

It does look like there is only one gyro-compass on the U-boats. I saw the gyro-compass labeled as "Master Gyro-compass" in Anatomy of the ship: The Type VII U-Boat by D. Westwood and I just assume there was a second one on U-boats.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 26 Feb , 2010, 15:56
Hello Simon

I saw the gyro-compass labeled as "Master Gyro-compass" in Anatomy of the ship: The Type VII U-Boat by D. Westwood and I just assume there was a second one on U-boats.

I have also met this term, but I think, it means something like "master gyro" and some number of slave repeaters.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2010, 12:13
Does anyone know if the keel of the Type VII is solid or made up of frames?

same for me, sure I've seen a pic. I THINK it's solid (or solid from big chunks) for weight.

Just a guess, but the standard material for ballast keels is lead.  They want the heaviest but cheapest material they can get to take up the least amount of space while lowering the centre of gravity so the boat rolls less.  It would definitely not be iron as that would corrode too quickly, and not likely steel because it isn't heavy enough and they need it more elsewhere.

If there are access hatches to the keel, that sounds like they might want to at least inspect it once in a while for corrosion and to clean out the limber holes so that any water will drain to a sump where it can be pumped out.  The limber holes on many ships often have a small chain running for and aft that could be pulled to drag out any gunk that got stuck in the holes, blocking the free flow of water.

Going back to the keel ballast question. Would the lead blocks be painted with anything, e.g. like anti-corrosion?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: UrpoK on 27 Feb , 2010, 12:51
Hi NZ,

I think painting with anti-corrosion is a good guess.

There is a mention in the overhaul papers of submarine Vesikko that
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 27 Feb , 2010, 16:40
Simon, I don't know if there'd be any anti-corrosive coating on lead keel blocks or not.  My guess is not, because they're carried inside the steel of the keel so aren't exposed directly to water. 

The reason that the lead would be totally enclosed is because it's both very heavy, AND very soft.  You can't weld it to steel, since it melts at a much lower temp. and you can't bolt it either, since the boltholes would just wear away rapidly.  That means it any seam between steel and lead would quickly leak.

In my own boat, the lead is encased in fibreglass, and the only place it can be seen is through inspection ports on top.  I think some keels are through-bolted to outside of the hull, and the seam always seems to crack and let water in, making regular maintenance of the seam is a necessity.

Urpak's comment about scrubbing the ballast plates makes sense, in that lead does get powdery white on the outside and gets soft.  In fact, sailing ships before the invention of copper plating in the middle of the 18th century, were painted with a mixture of tallow and lead powder that made the underwater parts of the hull white (something to remember whenever making a model of a sailing ship.  You have to kow the date and location of the ship to determine what colour it would be below the waterline).

In a book I have, there's a colour plate of U-596, in Mediterranean camo, with the hull red below the waterline.  The saddletanks and the first what looks like 2 feet of the waterline are black or very dark grey, while below that is red.  Looks like the picture on Silent Hunter II.

I can't imagine that the KM didn't paint their steel hulls with anti0corrosive paint, which is that same dull red you often see the beams for bridges and buildings during construction.  The hull of Greif's Bismark is probably that colour below a dark band at the waterline. 

The dark grey of U-boat hulls would be an anti-fouling paint applied on top of the anti-corrosive paint.  It's the antifouling additives that make it turn dark after a few weeks immersion in water, it usually starts out a different colour, but of course, during wartime, they might also have used specif colours for camo reasons too.  The anti-fouling I use starts out a bright, copper colour when I first apply it, but about 2 weeks after launch, it looks about the same colour as a school blackboard that's been used a lot.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2010, 19:51
Simon, I don't know if there'd be any anti-corrosive coating on lead keel blocks or not.  My guess is not, because they're carried inside the steel of the keel so aren't exposed directly to water. 

Two things:

I can not remember what it call but it happen when two different metal touch. Would this not happen with lead and steel ???

&....

I can not imagine the keels for the U-Boats were water poof :-\   

I can't imagine that the KM didn't paint their steel hulls with anti0corrosive paint, which is that same dull red you often see the beams for bridges and buildings during construction.  The hull of Greif's Bismark is probably that colour below a dark band at the waterline. 

I believe they painted anti-corrosive paint inside the saddle tanks.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Feb , 2010, 00:39
I was thinking, I imagine most or maybe all the ballast must be fore of the Engine Room :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 28 Feb , 2010, 09:12
Simon, you're correct that there would be "galvanic corrosion" between lead and steel.

Galvanic corrosion occurs when two dissimilar metals connect, especially when immersed in a conductive liquid such as sea water.  The baser metal (the lead in this case) corrodes, not the more noble metal (the steel).

However, it's actually preferred that the lead WOULD corrode, rather than have the lead protected.  The reason is that there are many different kinds of metal used on any ship, and a submarine might have some specialized metals not found on most ships, and since they take water into ballast tanks and have all sorts of piping inside not found in surface ships, there's probably more different metals than surf-side.

So the idea is to have lots of the baser metals available for corrosion, so that it won't go on to attack the next metal up the scale.

All boats with any metal in contact with the water have what's called "zincs" or sacrificial anodes in several places to save the more expensive , vulnerable and important pieces.  These are just what they sound like, a piece of zinc, bolted to the sides of metal parts because if there's any stray electtrical current in the water, it will corrode the less noble metal (the zinc in this case) first and ignore the more noble metal.  The zincs have to be inspected once in a while and replaced when getting thin since as soon as the zinc is gone, the galvanic action will attack the next least noble metal.

On my own boat, there is a zinc inside the raw cooling water inlet before it gets to the engine, to protect the inside of the engine.  There is also a zinc on either side of the hull beside the propellor shaft to protect the shaft and propellor.

I've seen pictures of type VII's under water with a zinc on either side of both rudders, up near the top of the rudder close to the shaftand another zinc on each side of the propellor shaft struts, just by the hub that the shaft goes through.  These zincs are rectangular and 2-3 inches thick. 

The exact size and placement of the zincs would not be the same on each boat since they would use whatever was available at the time from whatever manufacturer had stock, and the location is not precise, just "close to where something needs protection".  On different years of my own boat, the zincs are always there, but could be as much as a foot different in location.

There would almost definitely be zincs somewhere around the diesel engines as well, and possibly somewhere near the electric motors to protect against stray current there.

One other point, the zincs should NEVER be covered over with the anti-corrosive paint.  The whole idea is that if there IS any corrosion, it would be the zinc that gets it.

The zinc itself is a dull silvery-grey colour, perhaps with some whitish corrosion on it.  You could make zincs for your model out of a strip of plastic, perhaps 1/4 mm thick, 1/2 mm high and 1.5-2 mm long.  The long axis is parallel to the motion of the boat.  Some zincs have rounded edges, some squared.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Feb , 2010, 11:07
Thanks Pat for the information  :) :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 28 Feb , 2010, 13:11
Hello Simon

Going back to the keel ballast question. Would the lead blocks be painted with anything, e.g. like anti-corrosion?

According to
http://www.ubootarchiv.de/dieboote/farben_maerz_1940.html
http://www.ubootarchiv.de/dieboote/farben_juli_1944.html
keel ballast was painted grey.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 28 Feb , 2010, 13:43
Did a bit more research and see that I had one thing wrong about the galvanic corrosion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

Anodic index (edited)
Gold, solid and plated, Gold-platinum alloy 0.00
Silver, solid or plated; monel metal. High nickel-copper alloys 0.15
Nickel, solid or plated, titanium an s alloys, Monel 0.30
Copper, solid or plated; low brasses or bronzes; silver solder; German silvery high copper-nickel alloys; nickel-chromium alloys 0.35
Brass and bronzes 0.40
High brasses and bronzes 0.45
18% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels 0.50
Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels 0.60
Tin-plate; tin-lead solder 0.65
Lead, solid or plated; high lead alloys 0.70
Iron, wrought, gray or malleable, plain carbon and low alloy steels 0.85
Aluminum, cast alloys other than silicon type, cadmium, plated and chromate 0.95
Hot-dip-zinc plate; galvanized steel 1.20
Zinc, wrought; zinc-base die-casting alloys; zinc plated 1.25


From the above chart, lead is more 'noble' than iron/mild steel, so the lead in ballast will not corrode.  Zinc is the lowest one on the scale (higher number means it corrodes faster), so that's why it's used as a sacrificial anode.  You can see from the chart why stainless steel (high chromium) is used in so many marine applications, and why brass was used in the old sailing ships, before stainless steel was invented. 

Powdered copper and tin are what is put into anti-fouling paints to keep barnacles, algae and marine life from attaching to the hulls.  Why it changes colour to slate grey/black after it's been in the water for a while, I don't know.  But it's because of that I suspect that even though at launching the hull of a U-boat might be dark grey, I think it will probably get darker with immersion.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Feb , 2010, 18:42
Hello Simon

Going back to the keel ballast question. Would the lead blocks be painted with anything, e.g. like anti-corrosion?

According to
http://www.ubootarchiv.de/dieboote/farben_maerz_1940.html
http://www.ubootarchiv.de/dieboote/farben_juli_1944.html
keel ballast was painted grey.

--
Regards
Maciek

Thanks Maciek. Great link :) :) I had forgotten about these pages.

The information on the 1944 version was great :) :) Ballast keel inside = 3 layers of tar varnish :) So they may have just put the lead blocks straight in without painting them.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Feb , 2010, 18:46
Did a bit more research and see that I had one thing wrong about the galvanic corrosion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

Anodic index (edited)
Gold, solid and plated, Gold-platinum alloy 0.00
Silver, solid or plated; monel metal. High nickel-copper alloys 0.15
Nickel, solid or plated, titanium an s alloys, Monel 0.30
Copper, solid or plated; low brasses or bronzes; silver solder; German silvery high copper-nickel alloys; nickel-chromium alloys 0.35
Brass and bronzes 0.40
High brasses and bronzes 0.45
18% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels 0.50
Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels 0.60
Tin-plate; tin-lead solder 0.65
Lead, solid or plated; high lead alloys 0.70
Iron, wrought, gray or malleable, plain carbon and low alloy steels 0.85
Aluminum, cast alloys other than silicon type, cadmium, plated and chromate 0.95
Hot-dip-zinc plate; galvanized steel 1.20
Zinc, wrought; zinc-base die-casting alloys; zinc plated 1.25


From the above chart, lead is more 'noble' than iron/mild steel, so the lead in ballast will not corrode.  Zinc is the lowest one on the scale (higher number means it corrodes faster), so that's why it's used as a sacrificial anode.  You can see from the chart why stainless steel (high chromium) is used in so many marine applications, and why brass was used in the old sailing ships, before stainless steel was invented. 

Powdered copper and tin are what is put into anti-fouling paints to keep barnacles, algae and marine life from attaching to the hulls.  Why it changes colour to slate grey/black after it's been in the water for a while, I don't know.  But it's because of that I suspect that even though at launching the hull of a U-boat might be dark grey, I think it will probably get darker with immersion.

Pat, the Wikipedia page on galvanic corrosion was the start thing I did after your late post ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Feb , 2010, 19:39
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5143/updatel.png) Turbo blower for the Port Diesel Engine

(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2695/img6494.jpg) (http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9376/typeviic411.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 01 Mar , 2010, 01:01
Nice picture Simon.  I wanted to build a turbo blower for my engine room interior, but I just could not gather the spare parts to build a realistic looking one.

Ernest

(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5143/updatel.png) Turbo blower for the Port Diesel Engine

(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2695/img6494.jpg) (http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9376/typeviic411.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Mar , 2010, 04:15
Not very submarine-ie but my solar hot water heater (and apparently most hot water heaters) has an anode that is designed to decay. It gets used up and prtoects the tank. has to be replaced every 5 years. Same principle.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 04 Mar , 2010, 07:00
Well, at least your anode IS under water all the time rokket.  That's sort of submarine-ie.

And yes, it's definitely the same principal.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Mar , 2010, 12:56
I was reading Iron Coffins by Herbert A. Werner yesterday. The date is 1st June 1943 and U-230 is about to go to sea. Herbert state:

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 06 Mar , 2010, 16:52
Interesting point, NZ, but then, the Germans were looking at a lot of almost sci-fi stuff, maybe it wasn't very secret. I think it's also ironic that the Metox lead Allies directly to it!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Mar , 2010, 19:23
Yes lots of talk about secret sci-fi stuff!! Herbert talks a lot about a 'Secret Dead Ray'  ;D ;D

I have been doing a lot reading about Metox and I think the new thought about it is.

Yes the Metox did emitted a weak signal and the Allies could detection this sign. However, it now believe that the signal was so weak that it could not be used to track U-Boats. About this time the Allies started to hear rumor that the Germans were starting to think that the Allies were homing into the Metox. So the Allies started a rumor that they could detection the Metox sign. I think they did this by telling Bombing crews, know that a few of them would be shot down over Germany. As soon the Germans hear that Allies could detection the Metox sign they toll all U-boat to stop using them. This was just what the Allies wanted. Now the Allies could used there radar with good results.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 07 Mar , 2010, 17:35
Clever! Intrigue! Like the "man who never was" - Brits put fake invasion plans on a dead body, dumped in the ocean with plane debris, and let it be discovered in Spain. Great triple twists!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 07 Mar , 2010, 18:17
That's an interesting story about the Metoz and the bomber crews Snowman.  What year was that happening and was it ALL Allied bomber crews or just the ones of one nation?

I've been tossing around the idea of writing a book about what I know of my father's war, and it might be something that he was involved in.  He was shot down in Feb '44, over Germany and as a Pathfinder, he would have been involved in radar and radar detection and electronic navigation (Oboe) before it was common among the RAF crews.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Mar , 2010, 20:22
That's an interesting story about the Metoz and the bomber crews Snowman.  What year was that happening and was it ALL Allied bomber crews or just the ones of one nation?

I've been tossing around the idea of writing a book about what I know of my father's war, and it might be something that he was involved in.  He was shot down in Feb '44, over Germany and as a Pathfinder, he would have been involved in radar and radar detection and electronic navigation (Oboe) before it was common among the RAF crews.

Doenitz ordered all U-boats to cause using the Metox on 31 July 1943, So the Brits, may have started the rumor a month or a few weeks before this. Maybe the started rumor with several SOE (Special Operations Executive) members going to a flying crew bar and going around starting this rumor knowing that the SS or Gestapo would end up with the information if they crash. Or maybe they crash a plane into France and made it look like it could track Metox signals :-\ I just not sure how they started the rumor. Maybe, in the next 20 years they may release a document with all the secret in it ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Mar , 2010, 20:32
Clever! Intrigue! Like the "man who never was" - Brits put fake invasion plans on a dead body, dumped in the ocean with plane debris, and let it be discovered in Spain. Great triple twists!

Yes, Operation Mincemeat. The Brits were very good at clever thing during the war
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trader on 08 Mar , 2010, 06:54
Hello
Ok, this is my first post, but in last Time i have many to read here.
Here ist a nice link for u-995 with Panorama

CT:
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/01_U-Boot_Turm_max.swf

Central
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/04_U-Boot-Zentrale_max.swf

Engine
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/02_U-Boot-Maschine_max.swf

Cu
Trader
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Mar , 2010, 00:56
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/214/helpq.png)

Does anyone know how the aft torpedo door work? As the plans do not seem to match the real pictures.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 09 Mar , 2010, 01:28
Hello Simon


Does anyone know how the aft torpedo door work? As the plans do not seem to match the real pictures.

You mean rear door of the tube (interior door)?
There was a door supported by the hinge. On the rear edge/end of the tube was rotating ring with
some kind of bayonet screw, which locked closed door.
There is also a gear, to which can be attached a hand lever, and which is used to rotate a lcoking ring
(at about 5 hour ;) on the below image).

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Photo13.jpg)

To the locking ring were also attached angle plate, which was used to interlock some operations.

See also photos on u-historia - you will see parts described above.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Mar , 2010, 01:40
Sorry, good point. I was talking about the outer door. On the plans it looks like it hinge at the top and the whole door left up
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Mar , 2010, 20:39
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/214/helpq.png)

Does anyone know the diameter of the propeller shaft or main drive shaft?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 11 Mar , 2010, 01:08
Hello Simon

Does anyone know the diameter of the propeller shaft or main drive shaft?

Look at
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm
Paragraph "Main Mounting"

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Mar , 2010, 01:41
Thanks, Maciek. The answer was 224 mm.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 12 Mar , 2010, 00:34
Not really related, but a Maciek just started at my work! That's not you is it? ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: UrpoK on 12 Mar , 2010, 13:25
Quote
You mean rear door of the tube (interior door)?
There was a door supported by the hinge. On the rear edge/end of the tube was rotating ring with
some kind of bayonet screw, which locked closed door.
There is also a gear, to which can be attached a hand lever, and which is used to rotate a lcoking ring

Hi Maciek,

Where did you find that photo?
It's a good shot.

The "interior door" was a moving launching piston which kept the pressurized air inside the boat.
Invisible or bubble less launching system.

Timo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 12 Mar , 2010, 17:39
Hello Timo

Where did you find that photo?
It's a good shot.

The photo is a part of British Report on captured U-570 (later HMS Graph)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570.htm

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 17 Mar , 2010, 15:31
Hello gents,

I've been meaning to post recently but have not quite found the time. Pat, I was very interested to hear your discussion on the sacrificial anodes and wonder if I might ask you a question.

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/VIIB_U99_8-1.jpg)

The above photo is of U 99 and can be found on page 25 in Steve Wiper's excellent pictorial book "Kriegsmarine Type VII U-Boats". Do you see the two plates ahead of the prop? Are they the sacrificial anodes? Originally I thought they weren't the correct size but I would be interested to hear your opinion.

I've also seen these in the same position on U 821.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 17 Mar , 2010, 17:56
Dougie, I'm assuming you mean the two squarish plates, one on either side of the prop shaft on the underside of the arm that supports the aft dive plane?

If so, then I think that yes, those are quite possibly sacrificial anodes.  They're about the right size for something as big as a U-boat, and around the stern is where I'd most expect to see them, especially near the propellors and rudders because it's there that you'd find most of the dissimilar metals (bronze - steel props, stainless steel shafts, hinges and bearings for the dvie planes and rudders, etc.)

The squares in your picture aren't in the same location, nor are they the same size and shape in the picture I'd seen before, but like I said, shape isn't definitive, since most boat builders will use whatever is available.  Milspecs of the day would just call for "anodes" and not specify what manufacturer or model they have to be, just that they provide enough zinc to do the job.  And when a boat came in for refit, they'd replace old anodes with whatever was handy too.

Location isn't necessarily going to be the same on each boat either, just that they have to have all the sensitive areas protected, and each builder could make his own deceision as to where.  It might even change from one boat to the next or from one refit to the next.

The main thing is that they have to be there, not what they look like.

There'd be a minimum of one for each propellor and one for each rudder, and there could be as many as two for each I think.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 18 Mar , 2010, 03:57
Hello NZSnowman,

Amazing work in any point of view ; highly instructive and helpful. Your research process is very interesting.
I like and admire your work, objectively...
Thank you.

Cheers,
Pepper-mint.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 18 Mar , 2010, 15:30
Dougie, I'm trying to get one of the pictures of the anodes scanned in and as soon as I can, I'll try and either post them here or get them to you another way.

I showed the picture to another sailor here who's going to scan it for me and was asked immediately if those were anodes, so I'm sure that's what they must be.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Apr , 2010, 22:36
Does anyone have and seen a picture of the High pressure air bottles under the deck ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Apr , 2010, 23:11
only in Gatos
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Apr , 2010, 23:20
only in Gatos

That may be the best I will get :( Its one of them things that was never photograph. Where would I start looking for pictures of the high pressure air bottles for the Gatos?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 05 Apr , 2010, 03:01
I have seen hp air flask on type XXI photos.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Apr , 2010, 20:37
I have seen hp air flask on type XXI photos.

--
Regards
Maciek
Hi Maciek

Can you remember where you saw the photos? Its likely that they are the same or very similar :) :) :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: wildspear on 05 Apr , 2010, 21:04
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z72/wildspear/100_5081.jpg)


I took this shot of the USS Silversides (Gato).
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Apr , 2010, 21:32
Thanks Wildspear!! :) :) Very useful it show me the shape of the bottles and a Pressure hull opening (just right of the bottles on the left). Thanks  :) :) 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Apr , 2010, 23:24
Here my best guess so far of the bottles of group 2. Top view & Side view.

(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3393/group2l.th.jpg) (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/group2l.jpg/)
High pressure air bottles - Group 2
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 06 Apr , 2010, 02:28
Hello Simon

I read your question once again and realized I misunderstood it - "under deck" as internal.

Here is the photo of machine room section of the type XXI boat.
Visible in background flask is (I suppose) Diesel engine starting flask.
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3979/typexxiairflask.jpg)
Source - "Vom Original zum Modell - Uboottyp XXI"
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Apr , 2010, 21:59
Does the vent located above the line of vents, just forward of the exhaust outlet, have a reason?

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5499/new1w.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Apr , 2010, 22:56
Many thanks to eveyone for the information on the bridge. I am going to work on this over the weekend  :)

How did the voice pipe work ??? I can not imagine the voice pipe went through the pressure hull.

Good question on the voice pipe, what a terrible hull penetration! Even if you relied on outside pressure keeping a cap shut, scary [insert 3 stooges "nnnnnaaaaaaah" scary noise here]

Hi Wink

It looks like they did penetration the hull :o but they did put in 3 valves in the voice pipe between the bridge to Control Room ;D

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate22.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate22.htm)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr. Bill on 09 Apr , 2010, 08:09
Hello Simon,

I am not certain, but I believe that one vent forward of the exhaust outlet and above the row of vents may be for a foot / hand hold intended for boarding the boat at this location.  Some photos and drawing that include the harbour railings show two closely spaced stanchions on the deck at this point in the hull.  Also, somewhere I remember this being mentioned as a boarding station - sorry can't recall the reference.  The David Westwood book has a good diagram showing this on page 26/27.  I hope this helps you!

Cheers,

Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 10 Apr , 2010, 12:44
Hi gents,

I'd say your theory about a foot/hand hold is very plausible, Bill. Do you think this is correct, Simon?

Cheers,

Dougie 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 10 Apr , 2010, 19:13
NZ - thanks for that, interesting!

Simon/Bill,
also interesting! Gatos had a "sea ladder" - cutouts, sometimes in a zig-zag pattern. I'm pretty sure they had a "foot plate" or stair tread welded inside to place your foot, and would have had to be reinforced with angle brackets because that hull casing - in Gatos anyway - was tissue thin and wouldn't take weight. Yes, 2nd pic, shows a TINY "L" lip welded inside

(http://amp.rokket.biz/images/forum/sealadder.png)

(http://amp.rokket.biz/images/forum/sealadder2.png)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Apr , 2010, 02:48
I am not to sure about a foot/hand hold :-\, it seem to be in a funny position but what would be a good position. I will check all my books and pictures over the next couple of days and see if I found anything.

I had imagine a foot/hand hold would be smaller like on the Gatos and I would think if a Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Apr , 2010, 03:32
Interesting point, NZ, but then, the Germans were looking at a lot of almost sci-fi stuff, maybe it wasn't very secret. I think it's also ironic that the Metox lead Allies directly to it!

Yes lots of talk about secret sci-fi stuff!! Herbert talks a lot about a 'Secret Dead Ray'  ;D ;D

I have been doing a lot reading about Metox and I think the new thought about it is.

Yes the Metox did emitted a weak signal and the Allies could detection this sign. However, it now believe that the signal was so weak that it could not be used to track U-Boats. About this time the Allies started to hear rumor that the Germans were starting to think that the Allies were homing into the Metox. So the Allies started a rumor that they could detection the Metox sign. I think they did this by telling Bombing crews, know that a few of them would be shot down over Germany. As soon the Germans hear that Allies could detection the Metox sign they toll all U-boat to stop using them. This was just what the Allies wanted. Now the Allies could used there radar with good results.

Clever! Intrigue! Like the "man who never was" - Brits put fake invasion plans on a dead body, dumped in the ocean with plane debris, and let it be discovered in Spain. Great triple twists!

That's an interesting story about the Metoz and the bomber crews Snowman.  What year was that happening and was it ALL Allied bomber crews or just the ones of one nation?

I've been tossing around the idea of writing a book about what I know of my father's war, and it might be something that he was involved in.  He was shot down in Feb '44, over Germany and as a Pathfinder, he would have been involved in radar and radar detection and electronic navigation (Oboe) before it was common among the RAF crews.

Doenitz ordered all U-boats to cause using the Metox on 31 July 1943, So the Brits, may have started the rumor a month or a few weeks before this. Maybe the started rumor with several SOE (Special Operations Executive) members going to a flying crew bar and going around starting this rumor knowing that the SS or Gestapo would end up with the information if they crash. Or maybe they crash a plane into France and made it look like it could track Metox signals :-\ I just not sure how they started the rumor. Maybe, in the next 20 years they may release a document with all the secret in it ;D

Here are little more information (and maybe correct) about the Metox that lead Allies directly to it. I just read this in Black May: Allies Defeat of German U-Boats

The Naxos-U replaced an interim G.S.R. call Hagenuk-Wellenzeiger, or Wanze, the sole virtue of which was that it emitted low levels of radiation. Discovering that the old Metox emitted high levels, BdU feared that Allied aircraft were homing on these emission. It was confirmed in that fear when a RAF prisoner at the German interrogation center Oberursal told his questioners that that was the means used by Coastal aircraft to find U-Boats. Thought untrue, the POW's lie and the resulting 'radiation scare' caused D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 11 Apr , 2010, 04:05
Hi Simon, it was true that Metox emissions acting as a homing device for aircraft to zero in on uboats.  As an aside, RAF Bomber Command had a radar warning reciever called "Monica" that did exactly the same thing, allowing German nightfighters to home in on it's emissions.  Radar was new technology during WWII, and alot was not understood about it's capabilities and vunerabilities.  The allies did a much better job unraveling radar's mysteries then the Germans during the war and were thus able to get alot more effective use from radar.

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Apr , 2010, 12:32
Thanks Ernest for formation! I do not know about the RAF Bomber Command system "Monica", I will have a search on the net for it  :) :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 12 Apr , 2010, 16:14
I am not to sure about a foot/hand hold :-\, it seem to be in a funny position but what would be a good position. I will check all my books and pictures over the next couple of days and see if I found anything.

I had imagine a foot/hand hold would be smaller like on the Gatos and I would think if a Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr. Bill on 13 Apr , 2010, 13:46
Hello!

I think the Type IX boats had foot/hand holes similar to the Gatos.  These are seen in many photos of various IX boats such as this:

(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3761/bundesarchivbild101iimwu.jpg)

Look just beneath the feet of the crewman on the gangplank.

Cheers,

Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Mr. Bill on 13 Apr , 2010, 14:10
Hello Again!

This photo might help demonstrate what I mentioned in a previous post about the stanchions.  It shows U-90 with all of the harbour railings/stanchions in place (probably commissioning day).  The single raised vent is located immediately below the two closely spaced stanchions.  These type of stanchions are commonly used at boarding locations which lead me to think the vent was a foot / hand hole used to board at this location. 

(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9770/u90prisedecommandement.jpg)

I suppose this vent could have a different purpose, but it seems like a foot / hand hole.  Could it be something else?

Cheers,

Bill



Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Apr , 2010, 22:13
Hi Bill

Its look like you are right. Its does look like a foot hole! I checked serveral of my plans and there seen nothing under the deck that needs an extra flood hole.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Apr , 2010, 22:37
A update of the Blowing of exhaust gases piping system for the ballast tanks.

(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6838/ex2i.th.jpg) (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/ex2i.jpg/)
Fig. 1. The old drawing base on The Type VII U-Boat by David Westwood.

(http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4322/ex1v.th.jpg) (http://img63.imageshack.us/i/ex1v.jpg/)
Fig. 2. New drawing base on war time photographs.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Apr , 2010, 18:16
Finish my new house on Monday :) :) :) and started moving in yesterdays. Finally now able to start setting up my office and computers. Having lots of fun now with the drawing. Still have to either buy or make myself a nice computer desk and unpack all my u-boat books.   

(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4970/dsc02799g.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Apr , 2010, 21:31
Hi Dougie

While doing your research for your 'Type VII Free-Flooding Vent Patterns' did you come across any real measurement for the size of the flood holes?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 15 Apr , 2010, 02:59
nice to get settled!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 16 Apr , 2010, 12:23
Hi Simon,

Nice to see you are getting settled in your new home. I think I wrote the original version of the vents pattern article about six years ago. It was written specifically with modellers of the (then) new Revell 1/72nd VIIC. At the time nobody other than myself seemed too bothered about the vent patterns. So I stuck to researching the patterns rather than the holes themselves.

Therefore I haven't actually measured the holes themselves. I would guess though, with multiple yards making the boats, that there might be some variations in the sizes between batches?

It is great to see talented researchers such as yourself who are studying the Type VIIC in real detail. Keep up the good work!

Cheers,

Dougie 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Apr , 2010, 13:16
Thanks for the information Dougie.

I really been enjoy the research side of my drawing!!! I have learn some much over the last 2 years while doing this drawing. I feel I could now name all the pipes in the engine room ;D

I think you are right about variations in the sizes between batches and likely even ship yards. At lase I have a great base to work from, as I know that the framing are space 500mm apart in this area. There would only be
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Apr , 2010, 15:29
Stern Flood Holes

Using an very clear and good photo, I was able to get a very good measurement of the stern Flood holes. I belive they are 400mm long and 120mm high (5.6mm x 1.7mm at 1:72 scale). I also workout the height between the double Flood Holes at 250mm (3.5mm).

(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/5275/underdeck.th.jpg) (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/underdeck.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: UrpoK on 17 Apr , 2010, 15:44
Congratulation for your promotion Admiral Simon!  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Apr , 2010, 16:19
Congratulation for your promotion Admiral Simon!  ;D

Thanks ;D

Maybe I should go see my boss and ask for a pay rise, to help pay for the mortgage on the new house.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 17 Apr , 2010, 18:39
That would be interesting to see...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Apr , 2010, 03:38
Does anyone know the diameter of the Torpedos tube ???

I am thinking around 561mm = (533mm + 2 x (the steel looks like 12mm + 2mm free ride))
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: UrpoK on 21 Apr , 2010, 13:01
Hi Simon,

Unfortunately I don
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Apr , 2010, 13:35
Hi Simon,

Unfortunately I don
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Apr , 2010, 18:50
Hello All

I would to introduce myself. I'm Simon Morris from New Zealand. For the last 10 months I have been drawing a 1:60 scale of a general VIIC/41. Durying this time a few quection pop up about the VIIC/41. I am hope that you guys can help my with a few  :)

Here is my first question.
I am looking for the other none water markings, I have seem to found mark II, III & V. I am looking for mark I & IV. I am thinking they are both on the port side of the boat, but i can not found them in the pictures i have of U-995. Does anyone found where they are?

Hull Marking (2 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ghtymnymh3n

After 15 months I just found a answer to my very first question on this forum. I just found 'Mark 1' in a old picture of U-995 from the 60's  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

It is located just stern of the last flood hole near the exhaust outlet. As all of the upper deck section has been replace on U-995 that is why I did not found it.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 22 Apr , 2010, 03:26
Hello Timo

But here is an image from CV 707 / Type IIA torpedo tube manual.
(T21722_21_2b Military Archives in Finnish National Archives)

Are the Finnish National Archives online accessible?

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: UrpoK on 22 Apr , 2010, 12:31
Hi Maciek,

Digitization is going on in Finnish National Archives.
But the work will take lots of time.

For example war diaries are already in digital form.
It will take years before we can watch u-boat plans in internet.  :-[

I
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 22 Apr , 2010, 12:43
Digitization is going on in Finnish National Archives.
But the work will take lots of time.

For example war diaries are already in digital form.
It will take years before we can watch u-boat plans in internet.  :-[

I
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Apr , 2010, 13:08
Digitization is going on in Finnish National Archives.
But the work will take lots of time.

For example war diaries are already in digital form.
It will take years before we can watch u-boat plans in internet.  :-[

I
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Apr , 2010, 02:42
Hi All

I have two plans that illustrate the aft Battery Hatch, but they are both in different location :( Does anyone know the correct location for the aft Battery Hatch?

(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3843/batt1.jpg)
Fig. 1. Battery Hatch location between frame number 41 and 42.

(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5104/batt2.jpg)
Fig. 2. Battery Hatch location between frame number 44 and 45.

Thanks, Simon

Answered on own question again :) That two question in two days, I’m on a roll  ;D ;D

After doing a little more research on why the move the aft battery hatch. They move it for the 3.7cm FlaK or quadruple 2cm L38/43 U Flak gun support for the lower Wintergraten.

I would believe is would be for all Type VIIC/41 or any other Type VIIC that had a lower Wintergraten with these big guns on.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Apr , 2010, 02:42
Hi All

Here is a small way to thanks all the people who have helped me over the last two years with my drawing.

I have prepared a 1:24 scale poster of a Type VIIC engine room. The poster is primly to be printer at A3 size, nevertheless, as the drawing is in a PDF format (12MB) it is possible to print it at any page size, without any lost of detail.

I welcome any feed back, mistakes etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trader on 24 Apr , 2010, 03:10
Hello Simon
Looks very great. Thank you

Cu
Dirk
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 24 Apr , 2010, 03:16
Welcome Trader!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Apr , 2010, 04:04
Hi Dougie

Just wanting to confirm about the flood vents in the central drainage area:

That all late war Type VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 25 Apr , 2010, 04:26
Hi Simon,

Yes, I think so on both counts. I should point out that when I wrote the vent pattern article a while back I had even less late war photos than now. So while I think that late war boats had the evenly spaced pattern, I can't be certain every boat was build like this. So many boats, so many yards... :)

Thank for your excellent engine room drawing. I dare say that drawing has more than a few objects in Coreldraw!

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Apr , 2010, 15:50
Thank for your excellent engine room drawing. I dare say that drawing has more than a few objects in Coreldraw!

Yes, just under 29,000 now, and 170,000 for the main drawing  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Apr , 2010, 16:15

I
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Apr , 2010, 16:19
Does anyone know how the ammunition for the 3.7cm or 2cm was store in the ammunition container? Was it in ammunition boxes or in ammunition clips?

Thanks, Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Apr , 2010, 19:33
I was looking for pictures of the 3.7cm ammunition on the web this morning and I am thinking that the Germans stored the ammunition in metal ammunition boxes like in (Fig. 1) and in wooden ammunition boxes in the main magazine (Fig. 2).

Any thoughts on this?

(http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/german/flakarticle_dmouritzsen24.jpg)
Fig. 1. 2cm Flak 30/38 magazine container.

(http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/german/flakarticle_dmouritzsen28.jpg)
Fig. 2. 2cm ammunition box. All 2cm ammunition came in 100
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trader on 27 Apr , 2010, 04:57
Hello Simon
Here is a link for many Boxes http://wehrmachts.kisten.free.fr/
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Apr , 2010, 12:13
Hello Simon
Here is a link for many Boxes http://wehrmachts.kisten.free.fr/


Thanks!!! Will be very useful for my drawing.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 27 Apr , 2010, 13:29
Great work and a big thank you Simon!  I only wish I had had the drawing when I was build my Eingine Room interior.  It is much better then most of the photos I had for reference.  Again, thank you and fantastic work.

Ernest

Hi All

Here is a small way to thanks all the people who have helped me over the last two years with my drawing.

I have prepared a 1:24 scale poster of a Type VIIC engine room. The poster is primly to be printer at A3 size, nevertheless, as the drawing is in a PDF format (12MB) it is possible to print it at any page size, without any lost of detail.

I welcome any feed back, mistakes etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 28 Apr , 2010, 06:23
Yes, that's the pic I'd lost Snowman.  Thanks.

The rail pic also proves that I need to make a ship's bell too.  But that raises a question.

Does anybody know if all U-boats had a bell?  And if so, did they remove it when on patrol and that would account for pictures without a bell in evidence?

It seems to me that if a boat was diving that the bell might make a noise and give it away to Sonar/ASDIC listeners.  (Most ship's bells are firmly fixed and it's the clapper that moves by pulling a cord.  The clapper wouldn't move in the open air but might when affected by denser water flow.)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 30 Apr , 2010, 10:53
Hi pat,

The bell was sometimes seen on pre-war photos (the most likely time to see in would be during commisssioning).

Even in port it isn't usually seen in wartime shots, though you may find a few exceptions.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 May , 2010, 16:51
Here a view rarely seen in U-Boat, a cross-section of a Turn 5 Wintergarten. After doing as much research on this Wintergarten style here are two drawings. The first drawing is a view of all the internal framing, the second drawing includes the 2cm and 3.7cm ammunition containers, the upper and lower gun support, and the Life Raft Container.

(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5725/decku.th.jpg) (http://img594.imageshack.us/i/decku.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 May , 2010, 16:29
There a row of double rivets just fore of the rudder (in red). As the upper deck of U-995 was replace I am unsure how far to take it.

I was wondering that others think as to how far I should take this row, either to the 'top of the deck' or to the other row of 'double rivets' (in blue which is also missing on U-995)?

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3504/new1lk.jpg)
Picture from http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: UrpoK on 06 May , 2010, 03:04
Hi Simon,
I don't know the answer, but I think the "double bubble row" is a part of the aft torpedo tube frame.
Timo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: UrpoK on 06 May , 2010, 05:32
If so,
I wouldn't take it no further than to the other row of 'double rivets'.

Quote
I was wondering that others think as to how far I should take this row, either to the 'top of the deck' or to the other row of 'double rivets' (in blue which is also missing on U-995)?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Seewolf on 13 May , 2010, 17:48
Hello Simon,
first at all great work and thanks for sharing. I wish I found this site earlyer  ;).
Maybe you can use this infomation below:
- at the first drawings I saw you had only 16 GHG receiver for the VIIC41 should be 24 GHG receiver each side (the early VIIC was only 11 each side)
- The S Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 May , 2010, 19:44
Hi Seewolf

Welcome aboard! Thanks for the kind words about my drawings. No worrys about your english; it is better than my german ;D

- at the first drawings I saw you had only 16 GHG receiver for the VIIC41 should be 24 GHG receiver each side (the early VIIC was only 11 each side)

Thanks, I do not know this. Now after this, looking at my plans, pictures and research I see you are right  :)

- The S Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 14 May , 2010, 03:22
Welcome Seewolf, and thanks for posting the excellent info. Also love your avatar, looks a bit like U 557's emblem...?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Seewolf on 14 May , 2010, 17:58
Hello gentelman thanks for the welcome,
Simon if I can help you with german labels or some technik stuff no problem, If I know it off course. Since good a half year I am working on researche for german WWII Subs.
Rokket the embleme is from U-129 it is a type IX/C U-Boot. U-557 (Type VII/C) had a red lion too with an anchor but they look nearly simulare they are both, I guees, old german town insignia I don`t know exact how old this insignia is but could be from the middleage.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 May , 2010, 16:07
In Anatomy of the Ship - The Type VII U-Boat on Page 73. Westwood suggest these drainage holes (No. 9 & 18) were added to Type VIIC/41's. I have never seen these drainage holes on any Type VII's.

Does anyone know if this is correct or have any comments on these drainage holes. Thanks, Simon.

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4379/new1u.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 May , 2010, 17:10
Below are 3 different outlines of the bows for the Type VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Seewolf on 18 May , 2010, 17:33
Hello Simon,
regarding the drainage holes (No. 9 & 18), I don`t remember drydock pics from VIIC/41, but the Laboe Boot U-995 did not have this drainage holes. Did Westwood wrote what time they was added.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 May , 2010, 18:22
Hello Simon,
regarding the drainage holes (No. 9 & 18), I don`t remember drydock pics from VIIC/41, but the Laboe Boot U-995 did not have this drainage holes. Did Westwood wrote what time they was added.

Westwood say 'stern general arranments' also he has them on his Type VIIF, VIID, U-995 & late war VIIC's elevation drawing :o I have never seen them on U-995, not even in all the pictures from the 70's. Like I said before, I never seen these hole on any Type VII's :-\ 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 May , 2010, 23:59
The French dock workers are extremely happy today as the keel for U-1308 was laid and finish today :) :) this include all 1,461 rivets ;D ;D

(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/1143/new1ej.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 19 May , 2010, 15:26
Hi Simon,

Congrats to the French dock workers, they must be good at riveting by now!

Your Atlantic bow question is a good one, though difficult to resolve with any level of certainty. I wouldn't be surprised if the Atlantic bow varied between shipyards? I don't think I could tell the difference between tapering back to 79 or 104 using period photos. My guess - and it is only a guess - for VIIC/41s would be tapering back to 79. 

Regarding the vents at the stern in Westwood's VIIC/41 plan, I've never seen them on any VIIC or VIIC/41 photo. Notice that he also has these vents on the VIID and VIIF plans. I wonder if they originated from a VIID or VIIF plan and Westwood incorrectly applied them to his VIIC/41 profile?  I haven't seen this area of a VIIF (or for that matter a VIID) so it may be possible these vents were on VIIFs?

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 May , 2010, 17:39
Hi Simon,

Congrats to the French dock workers, they must be good at riveting by now!

Your Atlantic bow question is a good one, though difficult to resolve with any level of certainty. I wouldn't be surprised if the Atlantic bow varied between shipyards? I don't think I could tell the difference between tapering back to 79 or 104 using period photos. My guess - and it is only a guess - for VIIC/41s would be tapering back to 79. 

Regarding the vents at the stern in Westwood's VIIC/41 plan, I've never seen them on any VIIC or VIIC/41 photo. Notice that he also has these vents on the VIID and VIIF plans. I wonder if they originated from a VIID or VIIF plan and Westwood incorrectly applied them to his VIIC/41 profile?  I haven't seen this area of a VIIF (or for that matter a VIID) so it may be possible these vents were on VIIFs?

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie for your help again  :) :)

I have never seen any original Type VIIC/41 plans, all the ones I have are for VIIC. Maybe it will be one of them things we will never give the answer until we found a set Type VIIC/41 deck plans. Nevertheless, you make a very point about varied between shipyards.

I have a set of plans for the Type VIID, I will check this out later, although I think is very unlikely as I believe the stern and bow sections are identical between the VIID/F and VIIC.

Yes, the French dock workers are good riveter now ;D ;D That not counting the 4000 plus rivets I added for the stern section the another day ;D ;D Make you wonder how many rivets are on U-Boat :o
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Seewolf on 20 May , 2010, 15:58
Hello Simon,
great job on the rivets!!! Regarding the drainage holes I guess Dougie had the solution. I have not much info about the VIIF but I start a little bit resarch at the VIID (have one at the bench  ;D). The VIID  I can say for sure U-217 had additional openings under the waterline at the bow section, if U-217 had these openings I gess also the other VIID had these openings and if they make additional openings under the waterline at the bow, why not at the stern .... of course it is guessing. They was all launched from 24.07.1941 till 05.12.1941 all builded from Germaniawerft, Kiel. The VIIF was also launched from Germaniawerft but later between 13.03.1943 and 08.05.1943.
Here i found a site withe wreck pics from U-214 type VIID, http://www.periscopepublishing.com/U214%20exhibition.htm , but off course the aft section is not present  :P this guys make also some videos from the wreck but my internet conection is to slow  :'(  It is now a little bit off topic regarding the drainage holes but interesting the VIID was launched with wind-sheeld and breakwater without net-cutter and at least U-214 was fitted with S-Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 May , 2010, 20:33
Hello Simon,
great job on the rivets!!! Regarding the drainage holes I guess Dougie had the solution. I have not much info about the VIIF but I start a little bit resarch at the VIID (have one at the bench  ;D). The VIID  I can say for sure U-217 had additional openings under the waterline at the bow section, if U-217 had these openings I gess also the other VIID had these openings and if they make additional openings under the waterline at the bow, why not at the stern .... of course it is guessing. They was all launched from 24.07.1941 till 05.12.1941 all builded from Germaniawerft, Kiel. The VIIF was also launched from Germaniawerft but later between 13.03.1943 and 08.05.1943.

You and Dougie could be right about the extra drainage holes in the bow and stern for the Type VII/D & F, as I think I just remember reading something about the Type VII/D & F having larger trim and diving tanks because there boats are longer. Maybe they need additional drainage holes to let the sea water in & out faster.

Sorry with the bow.... I was trying to find out what time and wich boat they started to use the Atlantic bow..... for the moment I give it up to find out  ::) but I will be on it in the end of this year, I will visit the U-Boot archive in my hometown, hope to find out several stuff there. Maybe I should open a thread, for questions I can try to find out there ?

I think this would be a great idea, if you have the time and energy to do it. I have a few questions I love to ask. I am sure I can think of more later  ;D

* Did U-1308 have a Balconger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Seewolf on 21 May , 2010, 14:04
Hi Simon,

Quote
Seewolf, was the SU-Apparat
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 May , 2010, 02:57
Way back in May of last year a few of as were having a discussion about what kind of repeaters are on the bridge Was it a Rudder telegraph not a Engine telegraph? While doing some research on the Conning tower wiring system today, I came across these 3 bits of information in the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 May , 2010, 03:09
The stern Navigation light and Stern light on the Conning tower, are white?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 May , 2010, 03:56
Inside the Conning tower, ivory colour?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 22 May , 2010, 17:49
I think it started as white, but dirt and such may make it stained and off colour
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 May , 2010, 18:23
Hi Simon,

My apologies for my delay in replying, I have been on paternity leave recently and have had no spare time. Below are a few shots of the late UZO. They aren't great - as always we need better resources. Your house looks brilliant, as do your posters on the wall.

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/UZO_late_U1004.jpg)
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/UZO_late_U994_2.jpg)
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/UZO_late.jpg)

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

Got around to drawing the late war UZO. I also update the binoculars to a Zeiss UDF 7x50 and modernize the UZO support column and added a firing release lever.

Thanks again for the pictures.

(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2299/uzo.th.jpg) (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/uzo.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 May , 2010, 15:32
From my previous post about the late war UZO you can see in my drawing the power cable exiting out the bottom of the UZO support column. In the picture below you can see this cable entering the Conning tower (Green Arrow). If you look at all the cable openings in the Conning tower they all have small valve on them (Red Arrows).  Why have valve ???

Is it to drain water out of the opening ??? or to pressure the seals with high air pressure ??? or to add oil ??? Does anyone know or have any commons ???

(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3861/new1wm.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 May , 2010, 15:33
Has anyone seen any measurement for the front outer torpedo doors for the Type VIIC's?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 May , 2010, 17:48
I am adding the Style 6 of Diesel Exhaust Outlets to my drawing. Which picture do poeple think looks more like 'German engineering' A or B? http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=280.0 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=280.0)

(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9992/pic2s.jpg)
Pic. A

(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5163/pic1pa.jpg)
Pic. B
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 27 May , 2010, 02:12
A for my vote. B makes the most sense, at least from a "off the shelf/standard/minimal effort way, nothing too custom): straight/90 elbow/slight custom. BUT, I don't feel the KM was into "easy and standard" at first...but others will know more than me!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 29 May , 2010, 14:48
From my previous post about the late war UZO you can see in my drawing the power cable exiting out the bottom of the UZO support column. In the picture below you can see this cable entering the Conning tower (Green Arrow). If you look at all the cable openings in the Conning tower they all have small valve on them (Red Arrows).  Why have valve ???

Is it to drain water out of the opening ??? or to pressure the seals with high air pressure ??? or to add oil ??? Does anyone know or have any commons ???

(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3861/new1wm.jpg)

Sorry it took so long to answer, but as usual, computer problems and it took until I could get to a different computer to view the picture that you were talking about.

The valve is a safety valve, to be able able to shut off the through-hull opening if it leaks.

EVERY boat, or at least every surface boat I've been on, has such a valve wherever there's an opening (through hull) to the outside water.  Since it's stndard, and in fact mandated by regulations, for such a shut offvalve for surface boats, I can't imagine that a submarine, designed to dive down a hundred meters or more, wouldn't also have such a valve.

The reason why it's a ball valve, instead of a simpler and cheaper gate valve, is so that it can be shut off with one quick 1/4 turn of the wrist in an emergency.

Not sure how they work with a cable running through them, but that would be the reason. 

If you watch any movies where a sub is being depth charged, you'll see whenever the boat springs a leak at any of the interior pipes or through hulls, the crew goes around and shuts off valves that the pipe leads from.  The leak may not always be where the pipe leads through the hull, but there will always be a valve somehwere that shuts it off from the outside.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 May , 2010, 15:28
Thanks, Pat for your reply :) :)

I did not noted they are all ball valves, but make sense! However, one thing I can not get my head around is, if there no valve on a through-hull opening would that not mean one less place to leaks from ???

I wonder if the small pipes to each valve are for high pressure air to stop water coming in, in a full emergency. If your boat is sinking fast it better to have a few bubblers on the surface than be at the bottom at 4000m. What your thought on this Pat ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 May , 2010, 16:48
Hi Maciek, Rokket & Pat

Re: our converse about the 'dynamic pressure' inlets for the speedometer in February this year. I found this view of U-995 of the bow vents, inside the vents you can see a pipe running to the edge of the bow. I wonder if this could be for the 'dynamic pressure' inlets pipe ??? Also it looks like they patch this area and maybe that why I can not locate the opening for the speedometer.
   
From http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg4272#msg4272 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg4272#msg4272)

(http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5800/new2e.jpg)
Picture from U-995 http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 29 May , 2010, 17:33
looks like a patch to stop visitors fro crawling in and poking around! Could be, hopefully Pat knows!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 30 May , 2010, 06:55
Thanks, Pat for your reply :) :)

I did not noted they are all ball valves, but make sense! However, one thing I can not get my head around is, if there no valve on a through-hull opening would that not mean one less place to leaks from ???

I wonder if the small pipes to each valve are for high pressure air to stop water coming in, in a full emergency. If your boat is sinking fast it better to have a few bubblers on the surface than be at the bottom at 4000m. What your thought on this Pat ???

You can usually tell ball valves because of the lever instead of a tap handle.  They use this for through-hull fittings because a ball valve can be closed quickly with just a quick flick of the wrist, while a gate valve (the ones with the tap handle, like an outside water tap) have to be turned several rotations to close and thus take too long in an emergency.  In a sub at depth, fast shut-off is important.

Not sure what the small pipes would be but your idea of using high pressure air makes sense.The air wouldn't even necessarily be escaping, but instead it would be a way to equalize the pressure on both sides of the valve so that the outside water pressure would have a harder time working its way through the joints in the valve.  You can only machine the toperances so tightly between the ball and the body of the valve before it would be too tight for the operator to turn, but that might still let water through, but if the whole valve could be pressurized, then that wouldn't matter.

I'm going to have to wait until I can get to another computer for the second question about the knotmeter (never call it a speedometer on a boat) because with this old clunker, I can't see the picture.

I do remember our previous conversation about the location though and I'm still wondering about how they protected it from hitting floating debris if it was at the cutwater (leading edge) of the boat.  These boats tended to have a lot of the bow come right out of the water in heavy seas so it would be a very vulnerable location.  Could this cover you're talking about be some sort of protection for that?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 May , 2010, 01:47
Hi Simon,

Quote
Seewolf, was the SU-Apparat
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 02 Jun , 2010, 01:29
Hello Simon

I have always thought that there were two TDC on a U-Boat, one in the Conning tower and one in the Control Room. However, now I believe there was only one in the Conning tower. Can anyone confirm this for me?

(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7454/tdc.th.jpg) (http://img35.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdc.jpg)
Attack periscope & TDC within the Conning tower :)

Some time ago you have posted drawing of the TDC.
Have you got the labels or descriptions of all dials you have drawn?

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 02 Jun , 2010, 02:21
Have you got the labels or descriptions of all dials you have drawn?

OK, I have found what I need.
http://www.pbase.com/kevbelcher/image/74885787

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Jun , 2010, 13:45
Hi Maciek

I try to post last night before going to bed but my internet stop working :(

Here is a clearer picture of U-995 TDC also. Not sure if this will be important to you but I base my drawing of the TDC from U-505 as I initial thought that there were two different TDC on a U-boat and I want to base my drawing of the TDC from the CT. Now I know there is only one aboard each boat.

It look like a Type IX TDC are vertical and the Type VII’s are horizon :) That is why my is vertical (I will change my back at a later date).

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7489/new1o.th.jpg) (http://img580.imageshack.us/i/new1o.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 03 Jun , 2010, 00:30
Hello Simon

Here is a clearer picture of U-995 TDC also. Not sure if this will be important to you but I base my drawing of the TDC from U-505 as I initial thought that there were two different TDC on a U-boat and I want to base my drawing of the TDC from the CT. Now I know there is only one aboard each boat.

It look like a Type IX TDC are vertical and the Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Jun , 2010, 02:49
The French dock workers are extremely happy today as the keel for U-1308 was laid and finish today :) :) this include all 1,461 rivets ;D ;D

The French dock workers are working extremely hard this week, as they know the shipyard will be closing in about 2 weeks for the winter. This week they finish the wooden deck, added the bow casting with the torpedo doors and added the new Balcon Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 04 Jun , 2010, 06:38
The French dock workers are working extremely hard this week, as they know the shipyard will be closing in about 2 weeks for the winter...and added the new Balcon Ger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Jun , 2010, 17:13
Hi Pat

Here a question for you, I am sure you will know. Why are
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 04 Jun , 2010, 21:51
Stringer is a term probably as old as shipbuilding.  In wooden ship and boat building, stringers have always been horizontal beams (or lathes in boats) on the inside of the ribs used to tie or "string together" the ribs so as to keep their spacing and thus strengthen the hull.

When you build a boat, it takes considerable time to attach all the planks along the ribs to close up the hull and if there was nothing to hold the top of the ribs in place during this process, the twisting forces of the bent planks would pull the ribs out of alignment.  But if there's a stringer placed first every so often along the ribs, it keeps the spacing for the ribs.

After the outside of the hull is finished, the stringers are left in for added strength and can also be landing points for the edges of decks (or in small boats, thwarts or seats)

In U-boats of course, there are no longer any planks, but stringers are still useful to keep the ribs of the casing aligned and provide strongpoints for attachment to the pressure hull and for other pieces of equipment and bracing for the deck.  Without the stringers, the casing might have a tendency to twist in the forward and aft parts that extend beyond the pressure hull.  This could create a problem especially in the bow where the outer torpedo tube doors have to move.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Jun , 2010, 12:23
Does anyone know the diameter of the Torpedos tube ???

I am thinking around 561mm = (533mm + 2 x (the steel looks like 12mm + 2mm free ride))

Just found that the inside diameter of the U.S. Navy 21 in torpedoes tube are 21.125 in, which is 536.6, that only leaves about 3 mm clearness between the tube and torpedo. If the German torpedoe tubes are similar to the U.S. it look like my previous diameters may be very near.

The Fleet Type Submarine Online 21-Inch Submerged Torpedo Tubes http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/tubes/index.htm (http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/tubes/index.htm)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 07 Jun , 2010, 04:11
Does anyone know the diameter of the Torpedos tube ???

I am thinking around 561mm = (533mm + 2 x (the steel looks like 12mm + 2mm free ride))

Simon,

Maybe : http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/UTorpedos.htm

Laurent...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jun , 2010, 15:39
Thanks, Pepper. This link has helped it all come together for me  :) :) :) :) :) I had the correct German values for the torpedo tube for sometime now but my German to English translation was bad and I miss understand the meaning. It look like they are 7752 mm long and still checking the diameter meaning.

Seewolf, that is Hecketorpedorohr? I get Hedge torpedo pipe but this look wrong.

Here the full text if this helps.

Das boot ist mit 4 Bugtorpedorohren und einem Hecketorpedorohr von 553.6  mm Durchmesser und 7752 mm L
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 07 Jun , 2010, 16:42
Bugtorpedorohren / Hecketorpedorohr

I think it's :
Bugtorpedorohren : Bow torpedo tubes
hecktorpedorohr : Stern torpedo tube

link : http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBNotesArmament.htm   @Torpedo and Mine Vocabulary  B & H section

 ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jun , 2010, 17:03
Thanks Pepper  :) :)

It also look like the 553.6 mm diameter is the inside diameter of the torpedo tube. This would examine the large clearness between the torpedo and tube that is on display at Laboe Naval Memorial. It looks like the Kriegsmarine went for a larger clearness between the tube and torpedo compare to the U.S. Navy.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 07 Jun , 2010, 17:16
You're welcome ! I love torpedos and torpedorohre ;D

2cm difference : like a bullet in a barrel (the difference is the water instead of the air) ; when the water fills the tube, the torpedo floats and slides on the water along the rohr... Lubrification...

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jun , 2010, 19:41
Simon is sad :'( :'( as he has just realise for the last three days he been drawing the starboard bow torpedo tube and not the port torpedo tube ::) ::).
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jun , 2010, 23:31
(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3913/96702747.th.jpg) (http://img375.imageshack.us/i/96702747.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Outer Torpedo Tube No. 2.

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9204/70950212.th.jpg) (http://img443.imageshack.us/i/70950212.jpg/)
Fig. 2. Outer Torpedo Tube within Bow Diving Tank.

* Large rod that runs along the top of the torpedo tube is the control arm for opening/closing outer/inter torpedo doors.
* Smaller rod is unknown to me, I think set something near the torpedo warhead :-\
* Large pipe (right) at top of torpedo tube is used to let sea water in.
* Oil lines to bearing, I believe run to upper deck, as there no evidence that they go back into the Pressure Hull & there no access into the Bow Diving Tank. I am thinking they run up to around Frame 96 (which is near the end of wooden deck) as there a hatch in is area.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Jun , 2010, 23:45
Hello Simon

Nice work.

* Smaller rod is unknown to me, I think set something near the torpedo warhead :-\

I think the small rod is a drive for a mine stop bolt, but I suppose that only from descriptions - I have never seen the drawing or photo
of that part of tube.

* Large pipe (right) at top of torpedo tube is used to let sea water in.

On the top of the torpedo tube is pipe for tube venting. Pipe for flooding is in the bottom part (and I think it's missing here).

* Oil lines to bearing, I believe run to upper deck, as there no evidence that they go back into the Pressure Hull & there no access into the Bow Diving Tank. I am thinking they run up to around Frame 96 (which is near the end of wooden deck) as there a hatch in is area.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm
CHAPTER III, Maintenance Arrangements, paragraph 63, 64, 65, page 18 - few sentences that can be helpful for you.

--
Regards
Maciek

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Jun , 2010, 01:47
Hi Maciek

Thanks for the information  :) :) :)

You could be right about the 'drive for a mine stop bolt' as I remember seeing something similar to this, in this area of the U.S. Navy torpedo tube. I will go back to check this out.

I have no pictures of the underside of torpedo tube, so I consider that is pipe must be the sea water inlet.

One things:
Do you know where the sea water came from? Did they just get it from within the bow casting?

Thanks for the link. I special like number 63  ;D ;D

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 08 Jun , 2010, 03:15
Hi Simon

I have no pictures of the underside of torpedo tube, so I consider that is pipe must be the sea water inlet.

According to:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate25.htm
as well as to US Navy tubes:
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/tubes/index.htm
and drawings in the "The submarine Alliance" (the Anatomy of the ship series)
the the flooding and draining pipes were at the bottom part of the tube.

On this photo of the U-995 forward tubes
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3299/torpedorohr2.jpg)
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3299/torpedorohr2.jpg
the part marked by number 1 is a flooding/draining valve (marked as i on the
U-570 Plate25) of the tube no II (upper left). There is also marked with thin red
line a link connecting this valve with interlock (number 2), which prevents opening
the drain valve when external torpedo doors are open.

One things:
Do you know where the sea water came from? Did they just get it from within the bow casting?

According to
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate25.htm
the tube was flooded with water moved (by means of the pressured air) from Torpedo Compensating Tanks (respectively 1, 2, 3).
In such case the trim of the boat till the firing of the torpedo is not changed.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 08 Jun , 2010, 08:16
One more thing...

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9204/70950212.th.jpg) (http://img443.imageshack.us/i/70950212.jpg/)
Fig. 2. Outer Torpedo Tube within Bow Diving Tank.

On your drawing it seems like the tube consists from four parts - one inside and three outside pressure hull bolted together.
In British report mentioned above (chapter III, paragraph 5) is written that tube is bolted from three sections.

--
Regards
Maciek

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Jun , 2010, 14:05
Hi Maciek

Yes you are right. I have only three sections

3 sections within the Bow Diving Tank.
Plus a very small section (about 200m long) between the Bow Diving Tank bulkhead and the Torpedo outer door

The bit that looks like another section within the pressure hull is the 1st section (Mid Grey) going through the bow cap (Black) and bolting on to a mounting ring. On the mounting ring there two rows of bolts. I believe the 1st outer section is bolted to the mounting ring first then on top of this is added the inter Torpedo tube (Light Grey). I still doing research in the area so is may not be 100% correct

(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8272/graphic1mw.jpg)     
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 10 Jun , 2010, 01:43
Hi Simon

To be honest, I can not imagine these construction. Could you attach a sketch with lines marking the connection between these parts of tube?

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Jun , 2010, 01:53
No problems, will also post some pictures. Will do it tomorrow, off to bed now ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Jun , 2010, 23:37
Maciek, did not get time today to do the sketch, busy at work, doing avalanche control work ;D Will get around to it on Tuesday now, sorry.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Jun , 2010, 23:32
Balcon Gerät – Update

I have redrawn the Balcon Gerät to what I believe is more correct and accurate to the Balcon Gerät that was on U-995. The new dimension at base foremost on the internal framing of the Type VIIC. I believe the complete structure of the Balcon Gerät is deigned around the two support shafts that attach it to the bow of a Type VIIC. Believing this and knowing the internal framing I have resize and relocated the Balcon Gerät. In addition, the fore support shaft acted to carry all the wiring through the Bow Diving Tank to ‘E’ Deck which holds all the GHG junction boxes (seen in an earlier drawing.

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6038/underdeckhq7.th.jpg) (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/underdeckhq7.jpg/)

I believe these are the steps that they perform to install the Balcon Gerät.


(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5535/bg1cu.th.jpg) (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/bg1cu.jpg/)
Fig. 1. New shape of the Balcon Gerät (upper) and older Balcon Gerät (lower). Also from this drawing you can see the support shafts, wiring and no support ribbing (no rivets) I believe they welded the outer shell of the Balcon Gerät directly on to the internal framing of the Balcon Gerät to reduce all under water noises.

(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1250/gb2i.th.jpg) (http://img139.imageshack.us/i/gb2i.jpg/)
Fig. 2. Balcon Gerät with support shafts and Bow Diving Tank.

(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2623/bg3.th.jpg) (http://img295.imageshack.us/i/bg3.jpg/)
Fig. 3. Bow section with Balcon Gerät, with fore Outer Torpedo Tube.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Jun , 2010, 23:57
It was a dreadful day at the shipyard, the weather continues getting worse. The morning started with only light rain but by late morning the weather was awful, driving rain and strong winds. The dockworkers refuse to work outside today. They were keen to finish the deck of U-1308, the newest VIIC/41 in the fleet, nevertheless they all voted to work inside due to the weather. They decided to work in the aft battery room.

They installed the new 33 MAL 800 batteries and connected them all up, next they install the small maintenance trolley. They were nearly done with the aft battery room, when they heard the end-of-day whistle blow. Before the whistle finished, they had drop there tools and were halfway out the gate on there way home. There is always tomorrow to finish it ;D


Now all the dockworkers were standing before the large iron gates of the shipyard that have been locked for the last few months. They were all keen and yearning to go back to work on U-1308 and finish this last boast of the VIIC’s series however the gates had been firmly locked now for the whole of the winter. One of the dockworker had heard that the foreman had to got a ‘real world job’ during the winter. Other dockworkers were heard asking what was this ‘real world job’ but none of them know that is was. One dockworkers also heard that a few eager guys had climbed the gates a month back and spend an hours working on the boat. As all the dockworkers decided were was no point waiting by the gates a little boy run by the group to the gates and pin up a small note that reads “The shipyard will reopen in spring”. All the dockworkers were happy and delight. This was good news to go home with!  ;D

Again the large iron gates of the shipyard are locked for the winter and the boatyard is closed. The dockworkers look back over there work for the last six months. They finish the engine room for U-1308. They finish the upper deck, ribbing, framing, pressure hull and casting. They add the latest Diesel Exhaust Outlets style, and UZO. They started layering all the piping under the decking, and putting in the torpedo tubes.

Thanks everyone for your help and information with my drawing. I will still found a little bit time to check the boards over the next few months. Wish you all the best for your summer or winter, Simon.

PS. I will post a few more update during next week
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 19 Jun , 2010, 07:55
Hi Simon,

That is great job !!!
U-1299 crew is thankfull !  ;)
Awaiting U-1308 shipyard news...

Take care
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Jun , 2010, 14:31
Stern Update

(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3219/new1hs.th.jpg) (http://img231.imageshack.us/i/new1hs.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Stern Section without and with hull systems
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Jun , 2010, 20:54
Propeller Shaft & Stuffing Box - Update

(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1681/new1ti.th.jpg) (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/new1ti.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Stuffing Box.

Hi Pat.
How does this look for a Stuffing Box ??? I could not found any drawing of a U-boat Stuffing Box, so used drawing for large ship Stuffing Box from the 50's. Do you think the lignum vitae wood should be extended :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Jun , 2010, 18:17
Hi Simon

To be honest, I can not imagine these construction. Could you attach a sketch with lines marking the connection between these parts of tube?

--
Regards
Maciek

(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/4462/pipese.th.jpg) (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/pipese.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Top Drawing - Side View with bolts holes & Bottom Drawing - Top view cross-section.

Sections

Green = Internal torpedo tube section (bow section)
Red = Section 1 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Purple = Section 2 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Orange = Section 3 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Copper = Small section of outer torpedo tube (within torpedo outer door).
Yellow = A small gasket I believe :-\
Blue = Bow cap Casting
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Jun , 2010, 02:29
Torpedo Tube Oil Lines - Update

Drawing base on CHAPTER III, Maintenance Arrangements, paragraph
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 24 Jun , 2010, 07:13
Simon, I've tried for several days now, on 4 different computers and 3 different ISP's, to view the picture of the stuffing box that you were asking about on June 19 but can't get the picture to come up on any of them.  I can't see any pictures posted on this thread after the one June 17, so can't make any comments.

However, here is a URL which has diagrams of several submarine stuffing boxes for periscopes, which might be of some help. 

If I add it up right, there should be about 7 stuffing boxes on a type VII U-boat

(1 each for the arm to activate the forward dive planes, rear dive planes and rudders) total of 3

(1 for each of the 2 propellor shafts) total of 2

(1 for each of the 2 periscopes) total of 2

About the only difference is that the propellor shaft stuffing boxes would have to stand up to longer periods of use at higher speeds, but other than that, they would probably be very similar in design.

On my boat, I can't get at the stuffing box very easily since it is buried deep in the keel and I have to dismantle the panels on two berths and then dive in head first to get to it in a very confined space.  My owner's manual doesn't have a diagram either.

However, the principal of them is basically the same except that most modern stuffing boxes seem to be only of metal with no wood (lignam vitae).  The stuffing box is filled usually with oiled rope or cotton, packed very tightly and then with the pressure increased by turning screws that condense the packing as much as mechanically possible.  As can be seen in the URL I've posted, there is sometimes also a bushing formed by a flat wire or grooved tube wrapped around the moveable shaft to allow water-repellant lubrication to service the shaft as well.

Hope this is of some help. 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 24 Jun , 2010, 10:17
Reading that URL from U-boat archive about U-570, that was posted by Simon, I came across something that I've always wondered about, but hadn't found an answer to (or perhaps I had and had forgotten it).

Just above the forward hydroplanes are two round circles on each side of the hull. 

Page 28 of the U-570 archives describes the UT ("underwater telegraphy") gear and that has to be what those two circles are.

If so, there are almost certainly black in colour and a dull, almost, but not quite flat finish.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Jun , 2010, 21:30
Hi Pat

I can not imagine why you can not see the picture. I will have a think of another way so you can view it, as I am very intense to see what you think of my Stuffing Box.

I have found a basic drawing for a US Gato periscope Stuffing Box which I may used next summer if I can not found a German one.

Also on the UT, I have always believe the covers for the UT and GHG sensors were made of copper :-\       
   
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 28 Jun , 2010, 03:58
Hello Simon


(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/4462/pipese.th.jpg) (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/pipese.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Top Drawing - Side View with bolts holes & Bottom Drawing - Top view cross-section.

Sections

Green = Internal torpedo tube section (bow section)
Red = Section 1 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Purple = Section 2 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Orange = Section 3 of outer torpedo tube (within Bow Diving Tank).
Copper = Small section of outer torpedo tube (within torpedo outer door).
Yellow = A small gasket I believe :-\
Blue = Bow cap Casting


Thanks for additional description.
Could you tell me sources you based on drawing tube as 4 sections (1 inner and 3 outer) device?

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Jun , 2010, 17:17
Hi Maciek

For the outer tube section I used several pictures from the U-995 DVD

(http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2367/img6407q.jpg)
Picture from U-995 http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

and for the bow cap casting/outer tube/bolts I used several pictures from a private collection.

(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7165/new1ab.jpg) 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 29 Jun , 2010, 01:51
Hi Simon

Thanks for photos.
I have seen the first photo before, but I have not associated it with submarine tube (but it clearly is).
The second photo is interensting - it seems like aft (nearer pressure hull) part of the lower port torpedo tube.
This part of tube is very rarely pictured ;(

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 02 Jul , 2010, 13:46
I don't know what it is about the pictures on this site, but they seem to be a problem for me.  I often have trouble and have to refresh several times to get the entire pic, or perhaps come back a different day and then it works, but not always.  I've tried one more computer now, again on a different ISP and can't view them.

Sometimes I put it down to my cranky old computer but when it
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 03 Jul , 2010, 03:50
I'm not sure but there MIGHT be a reference to the UT/GHG in Dougie's paint article, or The Wolf Pack...

Pat - sorry you are having trouble viewing pix. The tube pix above are actually just links, from imageshack, tho they seem to be appearing OK. I know we have a free forum app, and a free gallery with limited space we have to keep upping, but it should still work for you. can you describe symptoms and errors, and we'll see what we can do. I wonder if it is a browser setting on the various computers you are trying..hopefully, because that's an easy fix!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 03 Jul , 2010, 03:50
oh, excellent pix, never seen before, THANKS!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 03 Jul , 2010, 14:13
Ok, the two pix just before are a good example.

The top picture (titled "Picture from U-995") at the moment is only showing from the top down to just before the tube starts.  I see a white background with what looks like perhaps a chain and a beige/butterscotch coloured part in the middle that I can't tell what it is.  The total visible part is about 3 cursor widths high (I'm using that as a measurement since different monitors might produce different measurements).  The rest of the picture is blank.  There's enough space for it, but nothing has come up after waiting for 1/2 hour to download.

The bottom picture though (the bow cap casting/outer tube/bolts) has come through perfectly showing a white tube with a collar and 2 rows of nuts holding it together, a rusted bar crossing it diagonally from upper left to lower right and an a rusty 's' shaped tube on the right hand side.

Sometimes, if I refresh several times, I get a little bit more of the picture each time.  Sometimes not.  Sometimes it makes a difference to try a different computer on a different ISP, but often not.  At first I thought it was just my old clunker computer but if that was the case, why it not work on the computer at the yacht club office, my wife's business computer (using my ISP) or her laptop usingsomebody else's wireless, or a computer at the library?

Perhaps it's something to do with bandwidth in this area, but then, I'd think the library with hi-speed connectivity would work fine.

I don't understand myself, but whenever I get one that comes through right, if it's going to be useful I make sure to save it in case I can never see it again.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 05 Jul , 2010, 15:17
Hello guys,

Pat, I can't recall the source off the top of my head (it's been a few years since I wrote the colours article) but I was told the UT and GHG covers were unpainted bronze. This is on P41 of "The Wolf Pack".

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Jul , 2010, 21:45
Hi Simon

Thanks for photos.
I have seen the first photo before, but I have not associated it with submarine tube (but it clearly is).
The second photo is interensting - it seems like aft (nearer pressure hull) part of the lower port torpedo tube.
This part of tube is very rarely pictured ;(

--
Regards
Maciek

Hi Maciek

This picture and others were taken by a member of the SUBSIM Forum during a visit to U-995. I can not remember who or which sub-forum >:( However, there are several other members of the SUBSIM that have posted were trip to U-995. Could be worth a search for a picture of different view.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Jul , 2010, 21:54
Hello guys,

Pat, I can't recall the source off the top of my head (it's been a few years since I wrote the colours article) but I was told the UT and GHG covers were unpainted bronze. This is on P41 of "The Wolf Pack".

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Pat

I can imagine this was my source also. Just got the wrong metal  :-[ :-[
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 06 Jul , 2010, 19:20
Dougie, bronze or copper, being metal just seems odd to me for what's basically a microphone cover.  Copper is a basic ingredient of antifouling coatings, (as is tin back in those days).  Since bronze is an alloy with copper but it doesn't turn green the same way, it might be a little more likely. 

The UT and GHG would basically be analagous to the depth sounders of today, which are a very thick black plastic of some sort, but then, in WWII, they may not have had such types of plastic, or if they did, couldn't divert the petroleum resources to making it.  That might have been a reason for using metal. 

Any idea how they transmitted sound if they were metal?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 07 Jul , 2010, 15:18
Hi Pat,

If I remember correctly it was Rainer Bruns who told me they were bronze. He is very knowledgeable on the technical side of U-boats, and indeed the operational side too. Going by photos of the UT covers on brand new boats, they did look like a metal such as bronze so I went with what he told me.

My initial thought when you mentioned plastic was exactly as you pointed out - that they didn't have plastic or that bronze was much more readily available.

Cheers,

Dougie   
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Jul , 2010, 14:51
Dougie, bronze or copper, being metal just seems odd to me for what's basically a microphone cover.  Copper is a basic ingredient of antifouling coatings, (as is tin back in those days).  Since bronze is an alloy with copper but it doesn't turn green the same way, it might be a little more likely. 

The UT and GHG would basically be analagous to the depth sounders of today, which are a very thick black plastic of some sort, but then, in WWII, they may not have had such types of plastic, or if they did, couldn't divert the petroleum resources to making it.  That might have been a reason for using metal. 

Any idea how they transmitted sound if they were metal?

(http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1876/graphic1od.jpg)

Hi Pat

Here a cross section of a sensors from my drawing. The German Navy were utilizing Rochelle (salt) crystals (K Na C4 N4 O6) (known as Seignette-Kristall, in Germany) (blue and white in the drawing), based on the 'piezoelectrical effect'. I believe they used a small gasket light gray in the drawing around the sensors and black is the pressure hull and orange is the bronze cover.

Pat, if you can not see the drawing try this link http://img293.imageshack.us/i/graphic1od.jpg/ (http://img293.imageshack.us/i/graphic1od.jpg/)

Hi Maciek, Send you PM but not sure if it work, if not, let me know :-)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 18 Jul , 2010, 14:55
No luck on the line drawing, either here or on the link.  I've tried several times over the past 3 days.

I'll have to try from different computers again.  Sometimes that works.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: billp51d on 19 Jul , 2010, 05:58
      Hi Pat.. Same problem on my end. Nothing visable on the forum or link.
                                                                         Bill
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Jul , 2010, 16:08
Bill and Pat, I workout why you guys can't see the pictures, its because you guys are about -7 hours GMT and NZ is +12 GMT. You guys are always 18 hours behind the rest of us. ;D ;D ;)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 21 Jul , 2010, 03:16
"real keen to get some comment of what you think of my Stuffing Box."...

Have you used that line in a bar picking up women?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 21 Jul , 2010, 03:16
On a more serious note, very sorry some are having trouble with the pix. They work ia very simple manner, so all i can think is a setting - most of us can see them. I will see what a tech search does, so we can try to solve this
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Trader on 21 Jul , 2010, 03:33
Hello and good morning
At last time i have some trouble with this board. I changed the preferred Language from English to German and at this time i dont can see any Buttons at the top of this side. as i change it back to english it was ok.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 22 Jul , 2010, 16:28
Ok, I can see the picture going through that site.  I think the colours might have changed since there's no grey or white, but there is a green tube with a pair of bright blue lines horizontally in the middle.

Anyway, the drawing makes sense, and I can see what must be the bronze cover plate on the extreme right in the picture.  The gasket doesn't show up as grey, but I think it must be behind the bronze plate?

Not 100% sure how it works, but if you're saying that there's some sort of 'piezoelectrical effect', then I can sort of imagine a bit. 

Hmmm, where it's located, it must not even be inside the PH, so the transducer would be at the same pressure as the outside water perhaps, or so thick and small that it doesn't matter, and then it just sends the signal into the operator via a through hull.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 23 Jul , 2010, 23:44
Trader, I will check for updated German Language for this forum - sorry you had trouble

Pat - still checking solutions
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 24 Jul , 2010, 00:13
Pat - I have changed php code re: pix and thumbnails. This was the recommended solution at Simple Machines Forum Help. It solved the problem on other forums. Please chck and see if the images are visible for you.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 24 Jul , 2010, 00:37
Trader - we had some bad files for German, Dutch, Spanish and Russian. Hopefully fixed now. Please try German again and let us know if it works.

Thanks
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Jul , 2010, 23:00
Does anyone have the old old links for the 360 deg view of U-505? I seems to lose them here :(

Also anyone seen the 'U505 Extend the Experience' DVD? Is it any good?

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Jul , 2010, 23:21
Does anyone have the old old links for the 360 deg view of U-505? I seems to lose them here :(
A little more searching and I found the link http://archive.msichicago.org/exhibit/U505/virtualtour/vr_tour/index.html (http://archive.msichicago.org/exhibit/U505/virtualtour/vr_tour/index.html)

But here another question:

I am looking at the side step on the inside of the Bridge. The step on U-505 look like wood (check out the link below) and the step on U-955 is metal. I know these are not the original steps on U-955, as the original German
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 29 Jul , 2010, 01:15
There's logic either way. I would lean to metal, but that is backed up by nothing historical, just modern practical.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Aug , 2010, 16:40
Hi Simon,

Yeah, you'll need a compass repeater, engine dial and voicepipe. Have a look at this photo -

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U995_tower.jpg)

It is of U 995 after her Norwegian service. Now there may have been changes made by the Norwegians. But I don't have a photo of the "dashboard" of a wartime VIIC/41. You can see the compass repeater and engine dial are in the usual location, as on VIICs. The viocepipe is in the usual location to the starboard side (but is partially obscured by the periscope base).

Remember that a shelf was fitted to the VIICs and VIIC/41s from mid-war or so. The photos of U 377 show an example of this shelf, which was usually flat. Note there would be a hole in this shelf to allow access for the sky periscope. 

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

The small shelf with the telegraphs and viocepipe on it under the top shelf on U-995. Do you think this was a thing for Type VIIC/41s or added by the Norwegians?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 03 Aug , 2010, 20:41
Wink, the colours are still the same with the diagram of the UT, but at least it comes through clearly.  That's better than some of the pix on some of the other threads.  Ie. "Work in Progress", I only get the top few mm of each picture.  Not enough to see what it's all about.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 03 Aug , 2010, 20:58
Simon, re the question about the small shelf under the voicepipe and telegraph etc., not sure because of course Revell has been know to get things wrong in the past, but in the Revell Type VII C/41, 1:72 model, the shelf is there.

What isn't there is the vertical kickplate(?) underneath the shelf.

From my own experience at sea, I think also the shelf ABOVE the voicepipe/instruments was possibly an add-on that skippers might have installed to keep water from washing over the instruments and making them hard to read. 

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 04 Aug , 2010, 14:41
Hi Simon,

The small shelf under the telegraphs/voicepipe was there on VIIBs and VIICs. I think this shelf continued to be used on VIIC/41s as well. Although I don't have photographic evidence of this shelf on VIIC/41s, the fact that U 995 had this shelf may suggest it was used on VIIC/41s?

Pat - you are correct about the shelf ABOVE the telegraphs/voicepipe. The early VIICs didn't have this feature. I can't recall offhand when it was fitted to the U-boat fleet but I'm thinking 1942 or 1943 or so.

Simon, the side step on the inside of the tower would be metal, I think. You are right to mention about the pattern of the diamond plate. The VIICs (and maybe all the VIIC/41 too?) all had the "original" type of plate with raised dots.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Aug , 2010, 15:57
Dougie, you are correct about the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 10 Aug , 2010, 03:28
some museums go to much more trouble than others to preserve Period Correctness and accuracy...sorry to see less than a certain quality changes
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 10 Aug , 2010, 12:26
Hi Simon,

Thanks for posting the photos, particularly the second one. I hadn't realised that this other type was used inside the boats.

That fancy new flooring in your third pic doesn't look prototypical :)

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Aug , 2010, 01:04
It sad to think of U-995 as the last Type VII, as an inaccuracy part of history :( :( You would think they could get funding from the Germen Navy, to bring her back to what she look like at the end of WWII. It the only Type VII above the surface out of +700.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: rabapla on 12 Aug , 2010, 00:46
I don't think that the german navy/ goverment will "waste" money on a military monument of that time. political correctness. germany does not feel easy at all when it comes to anything connected with the nazi time. which is o.k., don't You think?

U-995 is a monument for all those who died, it's sort of a monument on a graveyard. let's be thankfull that it's there at all!

edit:
http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/geschichte_me.htm

interesting: the german site talks about the funding problems (no funding from official sides at all as I suspected), but they seem to skip that on the english translation..................mmmh............

edit 2:
but on the other hand we like to "keep our traditions running": not at least our U-boot exports make us the 3. largest nation when it comes to military exports.....................................

 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Aug , 2010, 10:18
I don't think that the german navy/ goverment will "waste" money on a military monument of that time. political correctness. germany does not feel easy at all when it comes to anything connected with the nazi time. which is o.k., don't You think?

U-995 is a monument for all those who died, it's sort of a monument on a graveyard. let's be thankfull that it's there at all!
 

Rabapla, you make some very good point! There are things I did not think about at the time.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Aug , 2010, 22:58
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5737/fumb35.th.jpg) (http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fumb35.jpg)
The atteck periscope (middle); the FuMB-9 Wanze (left) and the FuMB-35 Athos (right) (both passive radar detection) with pictures of U-249.


A small update for U-1308, a more correct FuMB-9 Wanze head.

(http://a.imageshack.us/img691/2995/new1gi.jpg)

 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Aug , 2010, 17:56
The crew of U-1308 are very happy today as they just acquire there shining new FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U radar. They are eager to try it out as soon as possible :)

(http://a.imageshack.us/img638/7633/fumo61.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 23 Aug , 2010, 20:07
VERY nice shematic Simon.  Do you have the profile and plan as well?  I've had a wonder about what the bottom of the array looks like.

A couple of things perhaps of interest.

While I was looking up the 37mm FlaK for Le Bosco, I came across a site with comments from the Germans that apparently the admiralty had a great deal of trouble getting U-boat commanders to actually use their radar sets.  The problem was that after the problems with the 'Biscay Cross' detectors, U-boaters came to believe that the Allies had radar detectors that could locate any German radar sets in use and vector in aircraft.  They didn't trust command assurances that German radar operated on different wavelengths and preferred to use their passive detectors (which had a longer range anyway) rather than transmitting a signal that might be intercepted.

Unfortunately, I didn't save the URL but if you search on 37mm FlaK, you might be able to come up with the same site that I'd found about equipment.

The second little tidbit of interest is that one of my neighbours recently got fed up with paying for TV cable and satellite, and went back to the idea of an antenna.  When I saw the antenna, I couldn't believe it.  It was almost exactly like the radar receiver you have pictured above.  The major differences were that it had quadrolpoles instead of dipoles, and the frame had only the horizontal bars with a central pole and not the vertical bars on the sides like the German set.  But if you mounted it on a lifesized U-boat replica, only people such as ourselves with more than a passing interest in detail would notice that it wasn't the same.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Aug , 2010, 23:50
Hi Pat

You are right about U-boat commanders not keen on using there radar sets. In all the books I have read, not one of them has said they used them.

I have not drawn the other views yet, will do them later.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: LE BOSCO on 24 Aug , 2010, 09:48

NZSnowman

Your work is amazing!You are really a big artist and your work is a real source of inspiration, so much you are precise in details!!
Thank you for sharing!

....While I was looking up the 37mm FlaK for Le Bosco,......
Pat I would not like to make you work in hours of overtime (I do not pay them :D :D :D ;))
Best regards
Nicolas
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 27 Aug , 2010, 06:11
Hi Simon,

Nice work on the Hohentwiel and other recent drawings. There are two photos on Ebay that might help you with the Askania magnetic compass fairing.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-U-Boot-957-Bergen-Norwegen-Soldaten-Kpt-Schaar-/380261057484?pt=Militaria#ht_2332wt_911

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-U-Boot-957-Bergen-Norwegen-Soldaten-Kpt-Schaar-/380261057495?pt=Militaria#ht_2341wt_911

The first photo shows the trailing edge quite well.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 27 Aug , 2010, 06:22
Nicolas, you may be right.  Since I started my U-711, I've put in about 18 months of work and still haven't even got the hull halves glued together.  But as you can tell from my description of the 37mm being around 70 pcs now, there's a lot of detail.  I try to make everything move as in the real ones, so the shiled folds, the gun rotates and elevates.  I've got most of the hatches on my boat opening, including the torpedo doors and the deck hatches, and all the antennas and scopes raise, lower and rotate.  It takes a while but it can be done.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Aug , 2010, 21:41
Hi Simon,

Nice work on the Hohentwiel and other recent drawings. There are two photos on Ebay that might help you with the Askania magnetic compass fairing.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-U-Boot-957-Bergen-Norwegen-Soldaten-Kpt-Schaar-/380261057484?pt=Militaria#ht_2332wt_911

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-U-Boot-957-Bergen-Norwegen-Soldaten-Kpt-Schaar-/380261057495?pt=Militaria#ht_2341wt_911

The first photo shows the trailing edge quite well.

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie :) :)

Looking at the pictures, it looks like they used a double row of small rivets to fasten the outer sheet to the internal frame. I will add this detail to my drawing.

Dougie, do you know what it looks like under the fairing? I read somewhere that the compass sit outside the hull and there a system of mirrors, including a small glass window in the pressure hull that project the compass dial in to the control room :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Aug , 2010, 23:49
The 2cm Amminition was loaded onto U-1308 today, however, still missing the guns ;D

(http://a.imageshack.us/img547/3886/amminition.th.jpg) (http://img547.imageshack.us/i/amminition.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 28 Aug , 2010, 12:50
Hello again Simon,

I've not seen a photo of the inside of the magnetic compass fairing. The closest photo is on page 22 of Vom Original zum VIIC. Does the German caption below this photo shed any light?

The other thing to consider is that the Askania fairing might have functioned slightly differently to the earlier type of fairing. There must have been a reason to change to the Askania. Perhaps Askania was a company name or a brand name?

Also the shape of ther Askania would, I would think, be hydronamically inferior to the old fairing?

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 28 Aug , 2010, 14:56
Hello

I've not seen a photo of the inside of the magnetic compass fairing. The closest photo is on page 22 of Vom Original zum VIIC. Does the German caption below this photo shed any light?

The caption below said only about magnetic compass in non-magnetic casing with 900 mm radius.

The other thing to consider is that the Askania fairing might have functioned slightly differently to the earlier type of fairing. There must have been a reason to change to the Askania. Perhaps Askania was a company name or a brand name?

Also the shape of ther Askania would, I would think, be hydronamically inferior to the old fairing?

"Askania" was the name of company which produced compasses and other things (i.e. in last edition of "U-Boot in Focus" is
article about war correspndent Gerhard Garms, who used Askania Z camera in pressure proof casing mounted on conning tower
of U-404)
http://www.compassmuseum.com/diverstext/profiles.htm#ASKANIA

Dougie, do you know what it looks like under the fairing? I read somewhere that the compass sit outside the hull and there a system of mirrors, including a small glass window in the pressure hull that project the compass dial in to the control room :-\

According to report
http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm
the housing for magnetic compass was made non-magnetic plates (aluminum-manganese) (section 9C-S11, page 6).
and
"Plating and framing within 900 mm (35.4" of the magnetic compass, which is of aluminum-magnesium 5.25 per specification KM 9304."

In reports it is also:
"The magnetic compass is a standard compass mounted in a pressure-proof case in the superstructure forward of the conning tower fairwater.  Lighting is provided, and an optical train leads through the pressure hull to the steering station in the control room, where the image of the rose and azimuth circle appears on a ground glass screen."

The description refers to type IXC, but I'm sure, that it was the same on type VII.


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Aug , 2010, 21:18
Also the shape of ther Askania would, I would think, be hydronamically inferior to the old fairing?

I think for sure, this would be hydrodynamically inferior. Maybe they needed a bigger gap to separate distances between the aluminum-magnesium and the steel :-\

"The magnetic compass is a standard compass mounted in a pressure-proof case in the superstructure forward of the conning tower fairwater.  Lighting is provided, and an optical train leads through the pressure hull to the steering station in the control room, where the image of the rose and azimuth circle appears on a ground glass screen."

I had a look for this in my photo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 29 Aug , 2010, 03:59
Hi

I had a look for this in my photo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 29 Aug , 2010, 08:23
great pix!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Aug , 2010, 16:27
Fantastic found Maciek!!! When I was looking for it I was looking for something a lot smaller. I was so set in my mind what I thought it must look like that I was only looking for one thing, but since you pointed it out, it because very obvious.

I recheck my U-995 photo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 31 Aug , 2010, 05:35
good detective work
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Sep , 2010, 23:18
Does anyone have any pictures of the mesh grill that can be sometime found around the bottom half of the wintergarten platforms?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TRM on 04 Sep , 2010, 06:09
NZ,

Not knowing if it helps at all.  These were the only two I had that were clear enough.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TII0CnMsi5I/AAAAAAAAAIo/kzmLuKNu5D0/s576/u1812li1.jpg)

The above was enhanced from this shot:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TII0EmVlibI/AAAAAAAAAIg/fWLVUwNctPU/s576/u1812li1.jpg)

This one might be on  "your CD"?
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TII2k1i0hJI/AAAAAAAAAIw/uNA1uITfIys/s640/66628471.jpg)

The above was enhanced from this shot:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TII0kV_8D6I/AAAAAAAAAIk/_2rDv8egbu4/s640/66628471.jpg)

Hope it helps...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: LE BOSCO on 04 Sep , 2010, 07:14

Hi NZSnowman
If that can help you
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk167/lebosco/Save0002.jpg)
I hope that you was not too "Shake" at home

regards
Nicolas
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TRM on 04 Sep , 2010, 07:58
NZ,  I meant to ask, are you and yours are unscathed from the earthquake? New Castle is North West of the epicenter? That was sizable.  I have a lab in my building at work that reproduces earthquakes for client testing.  Anything above the 7 on the MMS (Moment Magnitude Scale) get pretty nasty.

I hope all is well, take care.

T
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Sep , 2010, 13:08
Thanks for the pictures, TRM & Nicolas  :) :)

TRM, I work and live about 55 km away from epicentre in the mountain. I was working at the time of the earthquake at 4:35am. As the avalanche forecaster at the ski area I work at, I was extremely concerned for the safety of our ‘on-hill’ staff. We have no avalanche within the ski area but there were many very large avalanches 'out of bound', all around us. We had to delay the opening of the ski area for a few hours while we checked equipment and assessed avalanche risk. There was no damage to anything manmade either at work or home :)  However, my parents live only 6 km away from epicentre, and they said that they have lot of damage within the house :( My mum toll me that the road that they live on, shifted 3m!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TRM on 04 Sep , 2010, 16:38
Great news everyone is fine. That is some heavy duty movement to shift a road 3m!!!!!  At least was it in the right direction, giving more frontage to the property. ;)

You prompted me to google your homeland.... :o!  Simply amazing corner of the world there.  I think I will add it to my bucket list of places to go.

 We "got lucky" with Evan, up here.  Thought I was going to get at least what we call a bad Nor' Easta' (north eastern driving storm with a crappy MA accent)....then nothing.  little rain and done.  The news was scaring everybody for a week we were going to get slammed.  Came in the night!  Sunny yesterday and sunny today.

Enjoy the skiing!

Cheers!

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 12 Sep , 2010, 14:38
Hi Simon

Does anyone have and seen a picture of the High pressure air bottles under the deck ???

Maybe this helps:
http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/xax1hd_uboot-767_tech
around 5,56 min.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Sep , 2010, 15:49
A very big thinks Maciek! :) :) I love to look at any pictures of the internal parts of the Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 13 Sep , 2010, 02:19
Hi Simon

Group A high pressure air bottles are seated much higher under the deck than I imagine. It looks like the drawing in David Westwood book was correct. Maybe seating the bottles this way was to let the water drain to the bottom of the bottle ???

I'm quite sure, that is for that reason - air, when compressed is heating up. Then, when is cooling down, the water vapor condenses.
I suppose, that there, in the lowest point of bottle, should be even some draining valve.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Sep , 2010, 16:07
Yes, BUT...I just found out that the USN Gatos had a 4-stage air compressor (well, 2 twins). This is the 3,000 pound air system (min 1500psi, max 4500).

They had chilling (well, cooling) at each stage so it wasn't roasting and wet. (One of the stages, I THINK the first, or maybe the 4th, was in the oil sump tray! To save space and have the oil (presumably) help transfer heat.

SO, it is possible there was a roughly similar (at least in overall function: "cool") to these babies...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 13 Sep , 2010, 17:49
Interesting bit of info Wink.  I can't figure out why the pump would be IN the oil sump though.  It wouldn't transfer that much heat that way, and it makes it harder to work on if there are repairs needed.

Is the hi-press air used in the inhabitable parts of the boat too, just going through a regulator to step down the pressure?  The reason why I'm wondering is that if there was a problem and oil got sucked into the lines, then it could result in vapourized oil in the air which couldn't be healthy.

Back to the German practice, if the compressed air WAS cooled during the process to take out water, what other reason would there be to have the tanks at such an angle?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 14 Sep , 2010, 03:16
Well, related to Type IXC Design Study, section S49  -Compressed Air Plant description, both compressors were
connected to high pressure air installation via water separators and air filters.
http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm

Previous in this thread were attached photos of air flasks under the upper deck of Gato submarine - there were
even more inclined. Unfortunately, I was not able to find more detailed view.
I suppose, that despite of coolers and water separators, during each air recharging cycle
some vapor condensated. During each patrol there were many recharging cycles and the amount
of water in air flasks were significant, and some drain installation were necessery.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 14 Sep , 2010, 17:35
I agree with you about all the recharging cycles during an patrol SnakeDoc.  And most diesel engines have water separators in the fuel line because the diurnal chilling causes any water in the air inside the fuel tank to condense and contaminate the fuel, so why not something similar with the boat diving into cold water and then surfacing into warm air?

At one time long ago, I drove a transport truck with air brakes, and it was SOP to bleed the water out of the air tanks every morning before starting up the engine.  I'm sure there must have been water filters/separators somewhere in the hi-press air lines of the truck, but there was still a concern to get any accumulation out of the tanks. 

So back in the early days of U-boats, it makes even more sense that they wouldn't have trusted the technology to get all the water out and would have some way of draining it just in case.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 18 Sep , 2010, 03:07
Pat - I KNOW it sounds strange, or like I have heard from polluted sources or not understood, but I was standing in the pump room touching the #2 compressor as the guy who rebuilt it explained everything. The sump seems an odd place, but it saved space. Sure, a pain to get to for repair, but not all that bad and they hoped repair wouldn't be nec in the field. The oil made an excellent temp transfer, increasing efficiency.

All the "strange" things this guy has encountered on fleetboats have proven to be well-reasoned to his astonishment.

I honestly don't know about il/water filtration, I'm assuming there was some, I only mentioned the cooling because it related and would certainly help.

There were 5 Fleetboat air systems:

1 - 3000lb main (not directly tied to anything)
2 - 600lb Ballast blow and torpedo firing (comes from 3000 reduced)
3 - 225lb service air (run tools at 100psi, blow various small tanks) (comes from 3000 reduced)
4 - 10lb (finish blowing ballast) (independent compressor)
5 - salvage air (salvage teams could tie in and blow water from a sunken boat or flooded compartments)

That's all I know!

Maciek - The Gato inclined flasks I have seen too, they seem to be inclined ONLY to conform to the hull casing (the "V" of the bow) - and were used for firing torps.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Von Hilde on 18 Sep , 2010, 04:25
actually it prevents the boat from steering off a straight line:
given that the pressure is different on top and bottom of the screw, it gives the stern the tendency to steer to the right with a clockwise rotation of the screw.
usefull when you want to bring the stern to the quay........

  the torque is reffered to as, P factor. This is also applied to aircraft. Dual props that are counter rotating cancel out this. On a single engine aircraft it is nessissary to counter this effect, by applying rudder in the direction of the rotation of the prop as the torque is in the opposie direction of the rotation and has the tendency to direct the heading in that direction
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Sep , 2010, 20:30
I had been working on the wintergarten platforms for U-1308 for the last few months. During this time I see a good portion of pictures of Type VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Sep , 2010, 18:53
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5278/wintergartenplatforms.th.jpg) (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/wintergartenplatforms.jpg/)

U-1308 gets it Wintergarten platforms and bridge.

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5278/wintergartenplatforms.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5278/wintergartenplatforms.jpg) (Drawing 100%)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Sep , 2010, 22:59
Does anyone have any pictures of any piping under the Wintergarten platforms and bridge?

Or...

Does anyone have any pictures of any piping under the main deck?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Sep , 2010, 21:41
Does anyone have any good pictures of the Flooding/blowing vents on top of the saddle tanks?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 25 Sep , 2010, 01:49
no to all, this last one - there are a couple (or 1?) shot(s) in the Anatomy of a VIIC book. The Brits have captured a uboat and are working on it at dock, and the saddle tank covers are pretty prominent.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Oct , 2010, 20:06
I nearly finishing my research on the saddle tank hatches today. I apology to Dougie and Pat for misleading them about the differences in the shape of the hatches. http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=124.msg6627#msg6627 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=124.msg6627#msg6627) As it has turn out that were are two different shapes hatches. There are five hatches along the saddle tank (Fig. 1).

(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2707/hatch4.jpg)
Fig. 1. Hatch 1 to 5 - Stern to bow.

I am almost certain there is only one vent valve and this is Hatch 3 as illustrate in the plan below. Also there is no internal arms system to open this valve, you would need to be on the surface to open and closed it.

(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4760/pic3lc.jpg) from uboatarchive.net http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm)

Hatches
Hatch 1 access to Main ballast and reserve fuel oil tank 2
Hatch 2 access to reg. tanks and reserve fuel oil tank 1
Hatch 3 Vent valve for reg. tank 2
Hatch 4 access to Neg. buoyancy tank
Hatch 5 access to Main ballast and reserve fuel oil tank 4

By using the patches of the missing hatches on U-995 and counting the frames and was able to place the hatches in there correct locations. Below is a list of the real distance between the end of the stern to the centre of the hatch. If your model is 1:72 scale just divide the number by 72.

Distance
Hatch 1 27,750 mm
Hatch 2 30,250 mm
Hatch 3 33,750 mm
Hatch 4 35,275 mm
Hatch 5 37,350 mm

Size and shape
Hatch 1 about 60% sure on the shape and orientation, but should be 550mm by 400mm in size. I have not clear pictures of this hatch.
Hatch 2 not 100% sure on the shape or orientation but likely 550mm by 400mm in size. I have not clear pictures of this hatch.
Hatch 3 400mm - Circle
Hatch 4 400mm by 550mm in size.
Hatch 5 400mm by 550mm in size.

As yet I have seen no different between any VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 10 Oct , 2010, 00:57
Fig 4 is gold! See, there always seems to be a mix of round and oval - the Brit pic I was talking about pretty clearly shows round, and this is a mix. Interesting. Wish I had these a few yrs ago!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Oct , 2010, 13:05
Yes you are total right about figure four being the key for the whole hatch system on the saddle tanks. You can clearly see the round shape of the vent valve and I can just make out an outline of the inner plate also. The picture also give me the idea about the smooth outer cover, as you could clearly see the bolts to fix the cover plate to, but so many photographs either show a smooth surface over the hatches or a hollow. Then I realise that there must be a smooth second cover.

Still love to get a good photograph of hatch 1 and 2 to be 100% sure about the shape and orientation to finish of the research. Does anyone have any pictures of the hatches on the saddle tanks?

It seem many of the solution of the unsolved puzzles left with U-Boats we found over the last few years have come from either one or two key photographs. 

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 10 Oct , 2010, 15:37
Hi Simon,

This is fantastic stuff, you've really taken this forward. I'll need a few days to digest properly and will get back to you.

Thanks,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 12 Oct , 2010, 13:26
Hi Simon,

Thanks for all your research on the vents/covers...very interesting! I was wrong about the orientation on 3 and 4 - I think you are right about number 3 being circular. I've had a chance to look at photos properly and it does look circular right enough.

I'm fairly certain that number 4 was also a circle. Could number 4 be a Vent valve for reg. tank 1?

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U93_E7_10jun41.jpg)

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U96_C12.jpg)

In the above two photos, I think the green arrow points to #3, red to #4, blue to #5.

Notice also that #3 may be closer towards the centreline of the boat than #4 (the weld seam goes through #3 but not #4)?

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/U267.jpg)

#2 and #3 can be seen in the image above.

(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/shipyard.jpg)

Sorry about the quality of the image above, from P15 of Wetzel's U 995 book. In this photo in Wetzel's book, #3 and #4 really do look circular, the rest look oval.

I used to think there were 5 covers, but it bothered me a bit because 5 seemed too many. I think 2 vents and 3 covers per side is more plausible.

The covers would be oval shaped as it allows for a crewman to fit through. The vents don't need to be oval, hence I presume the round shape. 

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Oct , 2010, 14:24
(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/448/coverjr.jpg)
Vent valve; Hull opening (left), Inner hatch cover (middle) & Outer hatch cover (right).

Hull Opening: I have no idea that the valve look like under this hatch, however, the valve allows sea water in to the tank. I just used a frequent used valve on the boat and an open ended pipe.
Inner Hatch Cover: In the middle of this cover, you can see a smaller access hatch, I imagine it for quick access to the vent below :-\ Unsure what six pins do as seen in figure 4 of the previous posting. In the photograph below you can see what I believe is the under side of the outer hatch. There seem to be a rise support ridge on the base of this cover, perhaps the six pens lock into matching holes on base ???

(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8613/new3k.jpg)

Just was just about post my second part of my research then flash a warning
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Seewolf on 12 Oct , 2010, 20:51
Hi Simon great work with the saddle tanks, slowly everything comes together  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Oct , 2010, 01:15
A update on the drawing, now includes the Saddle Tank Hatches

(http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/5895/new2c.th.jpg) (http://img814.imageshack.us/i/new2c.jpg/)

Key for Drawing
http://www.mediafire.com/?ign98y2vc981py8 (http://www.mediafire.com/?ign98y2vc981py8)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 13 Oct , 2010, 13:39
Hi Simon,

Yeah, I hate it when that warning comes up! I've had a quick look at your latest drawing. The size, location and shape all look really good to me.

That's a good colour photo you posted. I've never seen the hatch in the open position, as it is in the photo. Well spotted.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers,

Dougie

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Oct , 2010, 15:07
Why did they change from bronze propellers to steel propellers from about January 1942 ???

Edit
Was it because of bronze shortage ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 14 Oct , 2010, 21:41
I've spent a couple of hours looking for any advantages of stainless steel propellors over bronze and so far haven't found much.  It seems that bronze is a much better material for boat propellors than stainless steel, being cheaper, lighter, less brittle, easier to repair and having a lower friction coefficient.

So the only thing left that makes sense would be a shortage of bronze midway through the war.  Since England is known for large deposits of tin even since prehistoric times, it was likely a lack of tin that was the problem.  Tin is alloyed with copper to make bronze.

I can verify that bronze is better.  About 15 years ago, my propellor, which is bronze, got nicked by hitting a floating tire with a steel wheel inside.  I was able to get the propellor repaired quite easily.  I've been told that with similar damage to a stainless steel propellor it would have been a write-off.

If you're building a boat with a bronze propellor, the colour should be flat bronze, almost, but not quite oxidized to a pale green.  Think of the green of copper roofs but not so bright and mixed with a light brown.  Boat propellors do not go as dark as bronze statues but maintain a slight beige-orange-yellow hue in with the green.

If modelling a stainless steel propellor, it should be silver but shinier than a silver coin.  Almost, but not quite, mirror-like.  Think of the colour of a kitchen knife and almost as shiny.  Stainless steel props do not go flat unless in extremely sandy conditions.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Oct , 2010, 22:12
Pat, do you think that late war u-boats had stainless steel or steel propellors ??? Or where the talk about steel propellors they always talking about stainless steel ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 15 Oct , 2010, 02:14
Just wanted to say hi Simon!  Its been a while since my last post.  I had a very busy racing season in road cycling and did not get online much between the beginning of April and now.  You drawings are top notch as always.  How did the ski season go in NZ?

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 15 Oct , 2010, 07:02
Welcome back Ernest.  Nice to see you again.

Simon, I'm almost sure that whenever it says 'steel' for propellors, it means 'stainless steel'.

Regular steel is not desirable for ship's propellors because it quickly gets pitted from electrolysis and coated with rust.  This would particularly bad for submursibles because the way surface ships locate them is by acoustics (ASDIC for the Commonwealth, Sonar for the Americans).  Any pitting or rust buildup not only reduces the propellor efficiency, but it also causes cavitation - the formation of air bubbles that causes more propellor noise even at slow speeds.  (Cavitation is also the cause of the reduced efficiency, as the prop loses its driving power when it's turning through gas instead of water).

Also, marine organisms like barnacles will adhere to steel propellors but they can't stick to stainless steel or bronze.

Because of their speed through the water, propellors don't hold antifouling paint.  It just wears off in a matter of a couple hundred nautical miles.  The paint itself then also creates cavitation with the roughness between the worn and the unworn parts.  Usually the leading edge is where it polishes clean first.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 20 Oct , 2010, 08:37
Hi Simon,

This photo might help with the treadplate on the lower part of the UZO-

http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Foto-U-Bootfahrer-U-Boot-635-Kapitan-Eckelmann-/380279884991?pt=Militaria&hash=item588a728cbf

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Oct , 2010, 12:33
Hi Dougie

Many thanks for the picture  :) :)

It looks to me like a lattice of Arc welding lines to me. I have seem this at work there they Arc welding lines in a mesh hatching pattern to a excavator buckets to slow down the wearing down of it (see picture below). It look like the Germans used the same system on this tread plate, to add grip for standing and to slow wear of the plate  :-\

Simon

(http://www.theboringwelder.com.au/images/Hard%20Facing%20on%20WA600%20Loader%20Bucket2.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 20 Oct , 2010, 13:27
Hi Simon,

Yeah, the lattice on your photo looks the same as the U-boat photo. Notice that the UZO plate isn't entirely round. There is a semi-circular chunk missing (near the top right of the photo).

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Oct , 2010, 13:47
Dougie, yes, I did notice the notch, but now that you made me think a little more about it. I seen this before on a few boat. I will have to recheck my pictures and see if there a pattern to this.

Also I just notice that the deck is metal. I sure they move to wood near the end of the war :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: LE BOSCO on 21 Oct , 2010, 14:30
Hi Simon

On the photo(U-635)It is of the anti-skid striated sheet steel !not in arc welding ,The features are too regular
I am metallic carpenter of formation (and locksmith, blacksmith now)
regards
Nico
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Oct , 2010, 14:52
Hi Nicolas,

You are correct about the features being very regular for wielding. Relooking at the picture, even the thickness of the lines are very regular.  One question rises, how did they add the anti-skid pattern, do the roll in the pattern while the steel is hot?

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: LE BOSCO on 21 Oct , 2010, 15:01
the roll in the pattern while the steel is hot?

Simon


yes Simon

The sheet of steel , in the red ,is spent between two rollers, among which one with the negative of striated !  As with a mould has waffle :D
Nicolas
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Oct , 2010, 11:32
Just wanted to say hi Simon!  Its been a while since my last post.  I had a very busy racing season in road cycling and did not get online much between the beginning of April and now.  You drawings are top notch as always.  How did the ski season go in NZ?

Ernest

I had little time this week to work on U-1308 as I am busy writing my end of winter weather report. Yesterday I got to the point that I need a break, so I decided to reinstall an old computer game
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 23 Oct , 2010, 16:55
Funny stuff! Not as nice as yours, but not bad for a game1
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 24 Oct , 2010, 06:07
NZ, you can't escape from studying a u-boat plan ! Even in your game  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 25 Oct , 2010, 00:18
Hi Simon, sounds like NZ had a mega-winter like Germany's past winter.  The winter of 09-10 had the most snow since 1979-80.  I hope we get a fair amount of snow this year also, as I want to try out snowshoeing as a fitness sport.  We shall see. 

Funny how games sometimes remind us of projects we are working on.  ;D

All the Best,
Ernest

Just wanted to say hi Simon!  Its been a while since my last post.  I had a very busy racing season in road cycling and did not get online much between the beginning of April and now.  You drawings are top notch as always.  How did the ski season go in NZ?

Ernest

I had little time this week to work on U-1308 as I am busy writing my end of winter weather report. Yesterday I got to the point that I need a break, so I decided to reinstall an old computer game
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Oct , 2010, 02:53
Does anyone know what colour the fuel oil was on the U-Boats?

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 27 Oct , 2010, 03:21
Hi Simon

Does anyone know what colour the fuel oil was on the U-Boats?

Maybe this helps:
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/usnavy-europe_toc.htm

better than nothing...

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 27 Oct , 2010, 06:52
Where in the list does it give the colour of the diesel SnakeDoc?

Perhaps it might help Simon, if we knew why you wnated the colour of the diesel fuel.  Like most transparent liquids, it would appear different depending on how it's being viewed (through a clear hose or looking inside a deep tank) or how long it's been sitting (older fuel tends to get darker with age).

My guess is that it would be about the same colour as diesel fuel is today.  That is to say that there would be some variation depending on the manufacturer and what colouration they might be intentionally adding to it.

The diesel I've gotten for my boat seems to vary from almost colourless with a slight hint of amber or yellow) at some gas stations (say at Shell for example) to a darker, almost honey-coloured liquid at others (Esso for example) but I've really never paid it much attention.  Most of the time I only see it if I spill it, since it goes directly into the container from the hose and then into the fuel tank on the boat, hopefully never seeing the light of day.  It's an awful smell, as I found out when I spilled a couple of litres in my bilge more than a decade ago and it took about 5 or 6 years to get the smell out of the boat, even using all sorts of environmental cleansing agents.

SnakeDoc's link mentions Kogasin, which I presume must be a smei-synthetic distillate of crude oil having a  iodine in it, which might give it a darker tint, but I'd guess that if you use a honey colour, you'd be about right.   Keeping in mind that "honey" is also a vague term for colour, since honey can vary from almost clear to a dark amber, so in it would be just about right.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 27 Oct , 2010, 07:25
Where in the list does it give the colour of the diesel SnakeDoc?

Well,
"Technical Report No.333-45: German Naval Fuel Oil"
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/tech_rpt_333_45/Report-333-45.pdf
on page 11 there is a table "Properties of german fuel oil components" with first row labeled as color (in Ostwald color system).

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 27 Oct , 2010, 08:30
To forestall another allegations - it seems that to get final color described by index "10" there is needed "Color harmony manual" by Egbert Jacobson, Walter C. Granville and Carl E. Foss.


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Oct , 2010, 11:20
Hi Maciek & Pat

Thanks both for all your help with the fuel oil :) :)

Maciek, a great report, where do you keep finding there fantastic little reports from? I keep thinking I seen them all?

The reason why I was asking about the colour of the fuel oil was, yesterday while studying the general layout of the Senior Raters section of the Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Oct , 2010, 01:12
Does anyone know what was inside the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 31 Oct , 2010, 08:49
Beyond the obvious, that there's a main battery switch there, no.  I know more about the inside of a U-boat with great thanks to your drawings than from any other source.

What I can say is that a modern surface boat usually has a battery switch that isolates certain batteries (or in the case of a U-boat, would isolate entire banks of batteries) so that you can draw power from one battery while the other(s) are either being serviced, charged or restricted to other purposes.

For instance, on my boat, I'll usually start/run the engine with one battery while I reserve the other battery for the electronics.  The reason for that is that it ensures that if I run down a battery through electronics, I'll have a freshly charged battery available still for emergency starting/navigating.distress call.  On alternate days, I switch which battery does which job so that one is always being charged.

The main switch can also join ALL batteries together at once for a heavy use (off, battery one, all, battery two) but you usually wouldn't run both together since the fresher battery will always hog the charge from the alternator (magneto on a sub?) and not distribute it evenly over both batteries.

The 'off' position is used when the boat is in port and not being used because there is a tendency for boats (and this would be worse for a steel-hulled boat) of power leakage and galvanic action with anything in the water, so you turn the batteries off when not needed to minimize this risk.

That's also the reason for the zincs on the aft dive planes, rudders and prop shaft supports that we talked about in a past exchange.

I'd guess that the main switch on a U-boat would function in a similar way but be more complex since there are many more batteries involved and the systems are more critical.  Probably it would have more settings and more possible ways of hooking up the batteries together?

One more thing is that every battery switch I've ever seen on a boat has always been a fire-engine red.  Don't know if that would necessarily be the case with WWII U-boats, but it seems likely.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Oct , 2010, 18:18
Beyond the obvious, that there's a main battery switch there, no.  I know more about the inside of a U-boat with great thanks to your drawings than from any other source.

What I can say is that a modern surface boat usually has a battery switch that isolates certain batteries (or in the case of a U-boat, would isolate entire banks of batteries) so that you can draw power from one battery while the other(s) are either being serviced, charged or restricted to other purposes.

For instance, on my boat, I'll usually start/run the engine with one battery while I reserve the other battery for the electronics.  The reason for that is that it ensures that if I run down a battery through electronics, I'll have a freshly charged battery available still for emergency starting/navigating.distress call.  On alternate days, I switch which battery does which job so that one is always being charged.

The main switch can also join ALL batteries together at once for a heavy use (off, battery one, all, battery two) but you usually wouldn't run both together since the fresher battery will always hog the charge from the alternator (magneto on a sub?) and not distribute it evenly over both batteries.

The 'off' position is used when the boat is in port and not being used because there is a tendency for boats (and this would be worse for a steel-hulled boat) of power leakage and galvanic action with anything in the water, so you turn the batteries off when not needed to minimize this risk.

That's also the reason for the zincs on the aft dive planes, rudders and prop shaft supports that we talked about in a past exchange.

I'd guess that the main switch on a U-boat would function in a similar way but be more complex since there are many more batteries involved and the systems are more critical.  Probably it would have more settings and more possible ways of hooking up the batteries together?

One more thing is that every battery switch I've ever seen on a boat has always been a fire-engine red.  Don't know if that would necessarily be the case with WWII U-boats, but it seems likely.

Thanks Pat, all great information!! :) :) Will help a lot!! I hope I am able to get one picture from the inside. It will drive me crazy not knowing that inside for my drawing. It extremely important to me, to get the drawing accurate. That why I put in the time to make the smallest detail correct, like the German Kriegsmarine china tableware set ;D, the ship clock, all the piping or the framing and ribbing etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Oct , 2010, 18:23
I can not imagine that these taps are the original German taps, does anyone know what they would look like? (Or are they the original tap?)

Thanks, Simon.

(http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/visitaguiada/cocinaiwc/fregadero-a.jpg)
Picture from http://www.u-historia.com/ (http://www.u-historia.com/)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Nov , 2010, 14:24
Does anyone have "Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp VII C" by Fritz K
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 01 Nov , 2010, 15:04
Hi Simon,

"Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp VII C" by Fritz K
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Nov , 2010, 16:51
Hi Dougie.

Yes I have seen all the plans and a few extra ones. I was trying to found a little about the history of these plans. How they were found and redrawn. I believe they were found sometime after the war (60
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Nov , 2010, 20:15
A small update today for the outlets valves for Diving Tank 3. I found this picture from http://www.u-boot-zentrale.de/eng/tower.htm (http://www.u-boot-zentrale.de/eng/tower.htm) with a wire net to protect against foreign bodies entering the tank.

(http://www.u-boot-zentrale.de/bilder/Entluft.jpg) (http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6598/new1gq.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Nov , 2010, 21:28
Why did they change from bronze propellers to steel propellers from about January 1942 ???

Edit
Was it because of bronze shortage ???

I've spent a couple of hours looking for any advantages of stainless steel propellors over bronze and so far haven't found much.  It seems that bronze is a much better material for boat propellors than stainless steel, being cheaper, lighter, less brittle, easier to repair and having a lower friction coefficient.

So the only thing left that makes sense would be a shortage of bronze midway through the war.  Since England is known for large deposits of tin even since prehistoric times, it was likely a lack of tin that was the problem.  Tin is alloyed with copper to make bronze.

I can verify that bronze is better.  About 15 years ago, my propellor, which is bronze, got nicked by hitting a floating tire with a steel wheel inside.  I was able to get the propellor repaired quite easily.  I've been told that with similar damage to a stainless steel propellor it would have been a write-off.

If you're building a boat with a bronze propellor, the colour should be flat bronze, almost, but not quite oxidized to a pale green.  Think of the green of copper roofs but not so bright and mixed with a light brown.  Boat propellors do not go as dark as bronze statues but maintain a slight beige-orange-yellow hue in with the green.

If modelling a stainless steel propellor, it should be silver but shinier than a silver coin.  Almost, but not quite, mirror-like.  Think of the colour of a kitchen knife and almost as shiny.  Stainless steel props do not go flat unless in extremely sandy conditions.

Had to update U-1308 propellers to the correct time period (sad as I like the look of the bronze propellers better :'( ).

Pat, was searching the net for pictures today for stainless steel propellers, your right about the stainless steel keeping there colours. Also found this picture, WOW! :o That one big U-Boat  ;D ;)

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4200/new4h.jpg)

(http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6058377/i/grind_20big_20prop_ezr.jpeg)   

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 02 Nov , 2010, 10:41
Hi Simon

Does anyone know what was inside the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 02 Nov , 2010, 11:56
Does anyone know what was inside the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Nov , 2010, 12:59
That would be wonderful, thanks.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Nov , 2010, 20:13
I have just found a significant error on Plan 11c of ‘Fritz Köhl & Axel Niestle U-Boat Type VIIC plans’ with the measurements of the search periscope. They list a total length of the search periscope as 9300 mm it should be 7825.5 mm, a huge different!! Any of my drawing with the search periscope previous to this date will be incorrect >:(

For modelling, if you want to extended your periscopes to there maximum used these figures:

Attack periscope - bottom of keel to top of periscope = 14663 mm (204 mm at 1:72 scale)
Search periscope - bottom of keel to top of periscope = 11999 mm (167 mm at 1:72 scale)

If a error like this could happen; it may help to example how the other error I have found with the high/low air lines happen.

.... I was trying to found a little about the history of these plans. How they were found and redrawn. I believe they were found sometime after the war (60’s  ???) and redrawn during the 80’s and 90’s. The reason why I am after this information is, over the last two or three weeks I been doing a lot of research on the high/low air lines that run under the deck but outside the pressure hull. I have looked at numerous sets of plans, schematises drawing and photographs and this morning I came to the conclusion that the air lines drawn on these set of plans are almost useless. They are inaccurate, and most lines are absent, so air lines are drawn in area there are no hull openings or just does not make sense to put them there.
I was trying to found how the errors happen. Did it happen while redrawing, or are the errors on the original plans? I mostly believe the errors happen while redrawing. Likely the original plans were very hard to read and a few air lines were missed or so lines were assume to be air lines but were in fact, other systems.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 04 Nov , 2010, 21:14
Simon, those measurements for the periscopes don't seem right.

When you look at the top of the CT, the tops of both persicopes in their 'down' position are level with each other.  If that's the case, then they can't be different if they both go to the keel.

That might be the correct length for each tube, but only if the search periscope doesn't go all the way to the keel.  (In point of fact, I don't think it does go down as far.)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Nov , 2010, 21:55
Hi Pat, I mean if the periscopes are extended to there maximum height. The distance from the bottom of the keel to the very top on the periscopes will be these figures. In the drawing below the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Nov , 2010, 01:30
Several weeks back I was so sick at looking at piping plans, I had to working on anything but piping. So I decided to draw the galley. Below are the results. Happy viewing.

(http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/1051/galley.th.jpg) (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/galley.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 05 Nov , 2010, 06:42
Yes, that makes more sense now.  Thanks Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Nov , 2010, 15:57
I love it when your research comes together. Even the smallest things can make me happy ;D Plus it all adds more detail to the big u-boat picture and increase the accurately of my drawing.

I have always believed that all the pipes under the deck were attached to the deck framing. This morning I noticed a pipe bracket I had not seen before in a picture from a Type IX. I have very few pictures of under the deck for Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Nov , 2010, 02:50
Below is a cross-section of the exhaust outlet valves from the diesel motor. The yellow circle is the trunk line however, there look to be an outer shell around the trunk line (red) and a space between them. Does anyone know if they water cool the hot exhaust gases before venting them out from the boat ???

(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6079/new2aa.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 06 Nov , 2010, 07:26
Hi Simon

You have found great photos of underdeck space ;)

Does anyone know if they water cool the hot exhaust gases before venting them out from the boat ???

According to cooling-water  system available on uboatarchive.net:
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13.htm
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13A.htm
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13B.htm
the exhaust gases were cooled by means of sea water from engine cooling system.
There were cooled both mufflers located outside the pressure hull and exhaust manifolds in Diesel engine room.

Take a look also at fuel oil compensating system:
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10.htm
The water from cooling system taken from mufflers outlets was used to filling the cool water gravity tank located
in the Conning Tower casing, from where it was taken to compensating the lack of oil in fuel oil tanks and bunkers
and to feed the hot water to the boat sanitary pipings:
http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate21.htm

--
Regards
Maciek




Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 06 Nov , 2010, 07:31
I forgot to add:

Quote
5.  The cooling water flows round the exhaust manifold, the group exhaust jacket, and thence to jacketing round the muffler valve and silencer.  Finally it is led to a gravity tank in the after side of the bridge casing where it is used to compensate fuel from the external and internal O.F. tanks.

http://uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm
page 47

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Nov , 2010, 12:27
Thanks again Maciek!! I think everday I learn something new about U-Boats!  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Nov , 2010, 15:33
Hello Simon


Does anyone know how the aft torpedo door work? As the plans do not seem to match the real pictures.

You mean rear door of the tube (interior door)?
There was a door supported by the hinge. On the rear edge/end of the tube was rotating ring with
some kind of bayonet screw, which locked closed door.
There is also a gear, to which can be attached a hand lever, and which is used to rotate a lcoking ring
(at about 5 hour ;) on the below image).

To the locking ring were also attached angle plate, which was used to interlock some operations.

See also photos on u-historia - you will see parts described above.

--
Regards
Maciek


Sorry, good point. I was talking about the outer door. On the plans it looks like it hinge at the top and the whole door left up

Way back in March I was asking about the stern outer torpedo hatch and how it worked. As from pictures of U-995 I just could not see how it hinge at the top and the whole door left up. This morning I read that the stern torpedo tube hatch has been welded shut, so the hatch openings are not visible. That is why I could not make head or tails of it  ;D

Maciek, I forgot to add, almost all of the pictures I have of the under deck have come from U-534 while she was being cut up. I have some excellent pictures of the framing, piping etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Nov , 2010, 15:46
I can not imagine that these taps are the original German taps, does anyone know what they would look like? (Or are they the original tap?)

Thanks, Simon.

(http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/visitaguiada/cocinaiwc/fregadero-a.jpg)
Picture from http://www.u-historia.com/ (http://www.u-historia.com/)



I was just watching a old WW2 Newsreel movie and it looks like the tap are likely the original German taps
(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/167/taps.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Nov , 2010, 03:09
Hi Simon

Maciek, I forgot to add, almost all of the pictures I have of the under deck have come from U-534 while she was being cut up. I have some excellent pictures of the framing, piping etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Nov , 2010, 18:56
You can found heaps of great pictures on http://www.flickr.com/ (http://www.flickr.com/), just type U-534 in the search box :)

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=u-534 (http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=u-534)

http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=u-boat&m=text (http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=u-boat&m=text)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Nov , 2010, 22:41
Continuing adding more piping under the decking. Added the Main Air Inlet Trunk line and the port and starboard Air Inlet Trunk lines. Happy viewing, Simon.

(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5720/picture2zz.th.jpg) (http://img534.imageshack.us/i/picture2zz.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Top view of pipes under the deck.

(http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/5639/picture1cu.th.jpg) (http://img828.imageshack.us/i/picture1cu.jpg/)
Fig. 2. Side view; (Top) Port Air Inlet Trunk line only; (Bottom) Main Air Inlet Trunk line.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Nov , 2010, 12:51
Does anyone know the dimensions of the pressure hull for the conning tower for a Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Nov , 2010, 17:17
Way back in February 2009 we had a discussion about a TV program on U-480 and Alberich. http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg1624#msg1624 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg1624#msg1624)

I just found it on YouTube

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkZFXNbkz2w&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&playnext=1&index=7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkZFXNbkz2w&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&playnext=1&index=7)
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GCQ8Ava16M&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&playnext=1&index=8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GCQ8Ava16M&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&playnext=1&index=8)
Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zarO5W1nR3M&playnext=1&list=PLE5760B8C205BDAEA&index=9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zarO5W1nR3M&playnext=1&list=PLE5760B8C205BDAEA&index=9)
Part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etKvM-mgae4&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&index=11&playnext=2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etKvM-mgae4&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&index=11&playnext=2)
Part 5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwuclvdJlkw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwuclvdJlkw)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Nov , 2010, 13:30
Does anyone know the dimensions of the pressure hull for the conning tower for a Type VII’s? I have 2950 mm for its length and I am after its width.

Thanks, Simon

Using measurements from the conning tower casing from a Type XXI (3540 x 2160 mm) I was able to scale down to a Type VIIC conning tower casing length of 2950 mm and got a width of 1845mm. Can confirm this?

When I compare this with what I previous estimated, it was only out by 5 mm (2950 x 1850 mm), if my figures are correct it look like the Type XXI conning tower casing is a scale up version of the Type VIIC conning tower casing.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Nov , 2010, 18:56
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5153/69623397.jpg)
Fig. 1. The Galley hatch from the top.

(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5246/23821485.jpg)
Fig. 2. The Galley hatch in its open position.

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-249Eriboll621.jpg)
Fig. 3. In this photograph from uboatarchive.net of U-249, you can see the Galley hatch also in it open position.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 12 Nov , 2010, 21:27
Simon, I may be looking at it wrong, but I think I've found a slight error on the galley hatch drawing (and the CT hatch drawing on another thread).

The dog at the lower edge of the hatch is in the open position, as it should be for the hatch to be open as drawn.  But when you look at the lever mechanism that releases the dog, it is at it's lowest extent, meeaning that the collar that moves the lever in and out to pivot the dog, is as close to the inner wheel as it can go.  If I understand the mechanics of that correctly, it should go the opposite direction.

In otherwords, for the dogs to be open, the collar that works the lever should be close to the inner surface of the hatch, and when it is close to the wheel is when the dogs should be closed.

A very minor difference in the drawing, but a huge difference in how the lever mechanism works.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Nov , 2010, 21:56
Hi Pat, you are right, about the position for the dog. I was too lazy to redraw the u-boat pressure hull for that drawing so I just copy and paste it from a drawing where the hatch was in its closed position. The hatch is in the closed position but without the u-boat pressure hull drawn in. 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Nov , 2010, 01:36
Does anyone have any pictures of the Schnorchel piston?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Nov , 2010, 17:16
Does anyone have Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp IXC or the 'Construction designs plans' for the Type IXC?

I have a very poor scan of Plan 7, I am after the measurements from
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Nov , 2010, 15:22
Does anyone have Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp IXC or the 'Construction designs plans' for the Type IXC?

I have a very poor scan of Plan 7, I am after the measurements from
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 15 Nov , 2010, 03:49
Hi Simon

Thanks for the link to U-534 photos ;)

Does anyone know the dimensions of the pressure hull for the conning tower for a Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Nov , 2010, 11:48
Thank, Maciek.

One thing I have been wondering about for a long time is. As we know that the Type VIIC/41 had better steel for the pressure hull. Do you think they used it for the conning tower also, hence, it was only 18 mm?

I also noticed this about the Type XXI that the main part of the conning tower is ellipse and the aft/fore parts are arc of circles. Wouldn
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: DB Andrus on 15 Nov , 2010, 15:16
Does anyone have Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp IXC or the 'Construction designs plans' for the Type IXC?

I have a very poor scan of Plan 7, I am after the measurements from
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Nov , 2010, 19:30
Thanks DB Andrus :) I will post my results of the Schnorchel system when I finish it. It
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: DB Andrus on 15 Nov , 2010, 22:00
Thanks DB Andrus :) I will post my results of the Schnorchel system when I finish it. It
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: FoxbaT on 17 Nov , 2010, 12:14
Simon, i have a question about the small holes on the conningtower; are these holes on your drawing 100% correct? and are they on both sides the same?

I mean these holes:
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2ltroy1.jpg)





On the U995 they are different, but i think not correct?
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2ahs02a.jpg)




Hope you can help me with this,

Karel
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Nov , 2010, 12:56
The holes are in the correct locations, they are for the air inlets (see below), and on both side. I believe there no standard pattern for there holes. I choose this pattern as it
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: FoxbaT on 17 Nov , 2010, 13:23
Many thanks Simon!!  ;)




Karel
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Nov , 2010, 01:14
Hi Pat.

After more research on the Schnorchel and U-995 (This whole Schnorchel system is a nightmare >:( - photographs don
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 19 Nov , 2010, 10:39
Beautiful work as always Simon.  I am glad you managed to retain your sanity while researching the schnorkel! ;)

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Nov , 2010, 11:55
Beautiful work as always Simon.  I am glad you managed to retain your sanity while researching the schnorkel! ;)

Ernest

Thanks Ernest, I am also happy to retain my sanity ;D I think doing this research on the schnorkel has been the hardest topic I have worked on with the Type VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 19 Nov , 2010, 22:11

So far I have found 3 styles of schnorkel head and 3 styles of schnorkel piping. I am drawing them up now and hope to have most of them finish this weekend.

Simon


I wonder.  Since I found that U-995 was having her schnorkel retrofitted in Trondheim at the end of the war, and U-711 that I'm building was fitted with her schnorkel in Narvik IIRC, that if the schnorkels weren't installed while being built, that there were just put in by any shop that had the necessary equipment and mechanics, but not necessarily in a proper shipyard, especially a U-boat yard?

In so doing, they exact run of the piping could be different for every boat, especially if it had already been modified for FuMo, Naxos, etc. which might get in the way of a standard piping run?

Since we've already found that such minor things as flooding holes are different from yard to yard, could it not therefore be even more true of schnorkels?

They might get the heads and valves shipped to them from manufacturers in Germany, but the piping would be done on location.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Nov , 2010, 22:42
Hi Pat

You are 100% correct :) :) :) :)

From what I found from my research you are correct about the older boats being fixed with the schnorkels at any shipyards. I believe only the very latest Type VIIC/41 (from late 1944 I think :-\) were getting them directly put on. I believe getting a schnorkel was the highest desire by any U-boat caption from 1944 onward. The demand for them was very high, I can imagine shipyards used that ever they could found. They must have experienced with all sort of piping.

Pat, have you see any pictures of U-711 schnorkel? Also that was the date for U-711 schnorkel?

Simon

PS Been writing up my research all day, coming along slowly ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Nov , 2010, 01:43
Hi Pat

Also on a side note:

In Westwood book (The Type VII U-boat) on page 34, he illustrated U-995 as it appeared in the last two years of the war. His drawing illustrates U-995 with the air outlet pipe on the deck and a deck layout for a schnorchel. The problem is that U-995 did not get it schnorchel till after the war ended ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 20 Nov , 2010, 20:57
Simon, no I haven't seen any pictures of U-711 with a schnorkel but one of the other members here (Jan?) gave me a date of "08.10.44 - January 45: fitting of schnorkel, general modernisation and overhaul" which fits in about right with the dates I have for U-711's patrols and time in port.

According to the same post, the 88mm deck gun was removed in Nov '43, and the 2 x 20mm Zwillings and 37mm FlaK were installed by May '44, so quite a while before the schnorkel. 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 20 Nov , 2010, 21:56
Simon, that's an interesting idea about the schnorkel for U-995 being layed out on top of the deck, at least until it could be rebuilt inside.

Do you have any diagrams or idea what that looked like?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Nov , 2010, 22:45
Pat, I should have my schnorkel research finish by tomorrow and I will post pictures, drawings etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Nov , 2010, 16:08
I have posted a link to a PDF file on my research on the Schnorchel system (found in 'Type VIIC/41 Drawings' http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=469.0 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=469.0)). I have decided to put my research in to this document as I believe it easier to read in a single document than several large posts that get harder to find over time. All the topics I am researching for my Type VIIC/41 drawing are all ongoing, as new information will always turns later ;D I still have lot of drawings that I want to add to this document when I can.

I welcome any feedback on the research or the document. I am sorry for the bad spelling and grammar throughout this document, but both are not my strongest subjects.

Happy viewing, and I hope some of this information will be useful for future U-boat models, Simon.


Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Nov , 2010, 13:27
Schnorchel with schnorchel restrain bracket

(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9851/uboatsensors1.th.jpg) (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/uboatsensors1.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 23 Nov , 2010, 15:39
Simon, no need to apologize for grammar and spelling.  We all make such mistakes sometimes, as well as plain typos even when we know the correct way.  And for some who have a different language, it's even more difficult.

If' you're worried about it, you could type your posts in a word processing program first, which will automatically correct many of the problems.  It's not foolproof, but it does help.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Dec , 2010, 18:37
Does anyone know the standard size for the Kriegsmarine flag for a u-boat?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 01 Dec , 2010, 21:27
Not sure what, or even if, there was a standard size for U-boats.

However, internationally, the standar is 1" of fly (the horizontal dimension of the flag) for every foot of overall length of the boat.  This would be rounded up to the next largest dimension if there was no flag of that size available.

Therefore, a 200 foot long U-boat would have a flag 16.7 feet on length, rounded up to 17 or perhaps 18 feet.

That seems kind of big to me from all the photos I've seen, but it refers more to the flag flown at the stern when in port than the one flown from the wintergarten while under way.

Most (but not all) national flags have a hoist to fly ratio of 1:2, so one foot of height to every 2 feet of length.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Dec , 2010, 16:03
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4917/oillines.jpg) Link to full size drawing http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4917/oillines.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4917/oillines.jpg)

I have two questions about the oil lines.

Do people think the lubricating caps for the oils would be painted red like the 8.8cm gun and some of the ones on U-995.

What do people think the oil lines are made of, copper or another metal? The oil lines on the outer tube section (below) are 3-5mm copper.

(http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2367/img6407q.jpg)
Picture from U-995 http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Dec , 2010, 21:48
Stern outer torpedo door

(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2001/19721692.jpg)
(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1281/64715754.jpg)
(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/7785/31051024.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 02 Dec , 2010, 22:53
Thanks for those pix of the stern torpedo door.  :D

I've been wondering for a long time how that worked and what it looked like.  Couldn't figure it out from the kit because there seemed to be no concavity for a regular to fit into.  Never thought of it working like this, but now that I see it makes perfect sense.

Also, shouldn't be too hard to make it work like this on the model.  Just have to create a tube for the inside and a torpedo nose to put in the tube.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Dec , 2010, 00:56
beautiful drawings, and quite useful!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 06 Dec , 2010, 07:36
beautiful drawings, and quite useful!

YES !!!
But one question Simon ( ;D) how does the hatch looks from behind, if you follow the boat ?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Dec , 2010, 11:50
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/580/new1sg.jpg)

The door is very 3D shape and very hard to draw in 2D like my drawing but here goes :-D Does it make sense?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 06 Dec , 2010, 12:57
Yes Simon  ;D thanks. I thought they sealed the aft torp. door. so i had doubts about the "look" comparing to your drawings.
On the picture do we see the original door ?

But it's 100% clear now.

Cheers.
PS.: Snowboard season is beginning...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 06 Dec , 2010, 19:48
Pepper-mint, I'd wondered the same thing and was never happy with how the stern tube looked in the model, but I couldn't see how the real one worked.

Now, with Simon's explanation and drawings, it all makes sense and it's actually quite easy to make a working outer door for the stern torpedo tube.

Wonderful information Simon!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 07 Dec , 2010, 09:17
I still think that on the actual U-995 the hatch is welded... Uboataces 6202...

My dear Snowman, a question remains  ;D :

How does the aft look when the torp. hatch is open ?

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Dec , 2010, 11:33
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/7205/door01.jpg) (http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/7785/31051024.jpg)

Yes, the door was welded closed in the 70
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 07 Dec , 2010, 12:19
Yeah !!!

Can't wait to see further updates.

Good day Snowman =)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Dec , 2010, 13:04
After helping TRM with the stern section of the deck, I thought I have a look at my stern for my drawing. I did a little bit of research and found three styles of decking, a Type VIIB, a Type VIIC and a late war Type VIIC & VIIC/41 style.

I need a few more pictures of the decking just to check a few things. Does anyone have a picture of the stern they would like to share?


(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/7632/sterndeck.th.jpg) (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/sterndeck.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Dec , 2010, 20:38
Hatch Research - These 3 hatches are found on all Type VIIB's, VIIC's & VIIC/41's (and maybe VIIA)

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8934/new2fd.jpg)
Blue = Steam heating system inlet (Both Port & Starboard).
Red = Fuel oil inlet (Starboard only).
Green = Engine lubricating oil inlet (Starboard only).

(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3641/u756photocc7.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3757/u756photocc6.jpg) (http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6057/u1020le17mai1944hambour.jpg) (http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6872/scan0026p.jpg) (http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/807/cookshatchzn4.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 09 Dec , 2010, 02:31
Hi SNZ,

Check your mail...

Cheers,
Pepper-M
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 09 Dec , 2010, 07:43
Hi Simon,

Here are a few -

(http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/deck_stern_2.jpg)

(http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/triangular_supports.jpg)

(http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/deck_stern.jpg)

I think the grill on the starboard side has 10 bars, at least it has on two photos I've seen. Note also there is a hatch on either side of the rear bollards; these two hatches have a handle-shaped space in them (unusual for a metal hatch?).

Also, see the square hatch on the port side, behind the triangular supports? This small hatch has two square holes.

There were probably slightly different variations of the deck, even between VIICs.

Hope they help a bit.

Cheers,

Dougie 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Dec , 2010, 12:30
Hi Dougie

Many thanks for the pictures!!  :) :)

Your correct about the 10 grills, I also noticed this. I only wanted to add ten grills but somehow 12 came out on my drawing, then I was too lazy to delete 2 of them - I was hoping that no one would see my error. Now I will need to fix it ;D

You
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Dec , 2010, 12:31
Hi SNZ,

Check your mail...

Cheers,
Pepper-M

Many thanks!!!  :) :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 09 Dec , 2010, 14:10
Hi Simon,

I think you are right about U 995 fairing, it could well be changed in the 1958-1965 period. The photo which confused me is on the right hand side of P115 in Wetzel's book. To my eyes it looks like S 308 (ex U 1202, sailing in the background) has the old mag fairing. And S 309 (ex U 995, moored in the foreground) has the Askania fairing exposed for maintenance. At least that's what it looks like to me, I'm not sure.

However the third image down on P111 shows the old style of fairing. I presume these colour underwater shots are of U 995 but don't know the date.

Great shots in that book.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: DB Andrus on 09 Dec , 2010, 14:27
Hi Simon,

I think you are right about U 995 fairing, it could well be changed in the 1958-1965 period. The photo which confused me is on the right hand side of P115 in Wetzel's book. To my eyes it looks like S 308 (ex U 1202, sailing in the background) has the old mag fairing. And S 309 (ex U 995, moored in the foreground) has the Askania fairing exposed for maintenance. At least that's what it looks like to me, I'm not sure.

However the third image down on P111 shows the old style of fairing. I presume these colour underwater shots are of U 995 but don't know the date.

Great shots in that book.

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

Is this the Wetzel book to which you refer:

U-Boote vor Murmansk: Mit den Unternehmungen des Letzten Deutschen Weltkriegs-U-Bootes U 995

or is it another?

Thanks in Advance,
D.B.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 09 Dec , 2010, 14:51
...
Does anyone have a picture where the aerial cables join the deck in the stern?
...
Simon

yes :
(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2010/12/09//101209104415602177282714.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)
hope it helps...
HD in your mail box + enigma
 ;)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Dec , 2010, 21:02
Yes Simon  ;D thanks. I thought they sealed the aft torp. door. so i had doubts about the "look" comparing to your drawings.
On the picture do we see the original door ?

But it's 100% clear now.

Cheers.
PS.: Snowboard season is beginning...

It looks like it going to be a great start to the season, from all the news reports of big snow dumps throughout Europe i am hearning. My friend in T
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Dec , 2010, 21:55
Hi Dougie

There looks like there some different in the large grill on the starboard side also. In one of your pictures (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg7760#msg7760) you can clearly see two hinges.

These pictures of your can not see a hinge.
(http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/deck_stern_2.jpg) (http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/deck_stern.jpg)

but in this picture of your, you can clearly see a hinge.
(http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/triangular_supports.jpg)
Full size view (http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc118/dougie47/triangular_supports.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TRM on 10 Dec , 2010, 04:29
Great pics!  One question.......the third picture,  what would cause them to set the stern light, not in the center?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 10 Dec , 2010, 08:19
Hi all,

The rear light was placed to the starboard of centre, and the aft set of bollards was placed to the port of centre. This was - I presume - so that the light would be able to shine past the raised bollards and not be obscured.

DB - The book I mentioned is U 995: das U-Boot vor dem Marine-Ehrenmal in laboe.

Simon - quite right, looks like hinges on one of those grills.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TRM on 10 Dec , 2010, 11:03
Thank Dougie! ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Dec , 2010, 11:51
I did notice the aft light was placed to the starboard of centre, but just thought that the dockworkers were having a bad day. But it now makes sense to offset it for the bollards. I much remember to add this feature to my drawing.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Dec , 2010, 11:27
Does anyone know what was inside the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Dec , 2010, 12:00
Hi Maciek

Do you know why the aft and bow inside torpedo tube look different? 

Also during your research have you come across any information about the oil lines? I am trying to find out what the tubing is made of. On the outer torpedo tube at Laboe Naval Memorial it show copper tubings, but I unsure if it is original.

(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9259/img6284l.jpg)(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/906/img6555p.jpg)
Pictures from U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Dec , 2010, 18:45
I started a Wikipedia page today on U-1308. It in no way finish, will slowing keep updating it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-1308 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-1308)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 12 Dec , 2010, 10:30
Hi Simon, unfortunately I can't find the darn pictures.  I also looked at some websites trying to find a shot of the location without luck unfortunately. 

Ernest


Does anyone know what was inside the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Dec , 2010, 10:52
Hi Simon, unfortunately I can't find the darn pictures.  I also looked at some websites trying to find a shot of the location without luck unfortunately. 

Ernest


Does anyone know what was inside the
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Dec , 2010, 11:25
HD in your mail box + enigma
 ;)

Thanks! I just found them in my Junk E-mail folder >:( Not sure why its just started putting your email in my Junk E-mail folder :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Dec , 2010, 13:59
Hi Maciek, Rokket & Pat

Going way back to our converse about the 'dynamic pressure' inlets for the speedometer in February of this year. http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg4505#msg4505 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg4505#msg4505)

Found this picture of U-543, over at subsim.com from dachshund

(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=19&pictureid=61)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TRM on 12 Dec , 2010, 14:39
Simon,

going back a couple of days only, the "Steam heating system inlet, Fuel oil inlet & Engine lubricating oil inlet"....found couple of good pics I think:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TQUDfVJjbwI/AAAAAAAAAoE/VHmJhNgr7zo/s640/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101II-MW-6434-34%2C_St._Nazaire%2C_U-Boot_einlaufend.jpg)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TQUDAWyw__I/AAAAAAAAAoA/g3_HMGS4dWQ/s512/u4041va4.jpg)

Cheers!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 12 Dec , 2010, 17:01
Simon, interesting info that the lining inside the torpedo tubes is copper, and that would be something visible in mine when the shutters are open.

It makes sense though, since copper is poisonous to most marine life and the basis for just about all modern antifouling (under the waterline) paints is copper.  (They used to also use aluminum, but that was banned about 10 years ago). 

The tubes would be something very hard to clean and maintain, since they can't run a cleaning rod through them like they could a big gun unless the boat was drydocked, so they'd want to make them out of something that marine life would NOT cling to.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Dec , 2010, 18:49
Simon,

going back a couple of days only, the "Steam heating system inlet, Fuel oil inlet & Engine lubricating oil inlet"....found couple of good pics I think:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TQUDfVJjbwI/AAAAAAAAAoE/VHmJhNgr7zo/s640/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101II-MW-6434-34%2C_St._Nazaire%2C_U-Boot_einlaufend.jpg) (http://lh3.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TQUDAWyw__I/AAAAAAAAAoA/g3_HMGS4dWQ/s512/u4041va4.jpg)

Cheers!

Thanks T! They are great!!

Spend six hours looking at piping within U-995 trying to found the Steam heating inlet in the pressure hull or Steam piping, without any luck and just going crazy!!!! I am starting to think that they remove this system from the Type VIIC/41 and maybe the late war Type VIIC.

Does anyone know if the Steam heating system was remove from the Type VIIC/41 and maybe the late war Type VIIC?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Dec , 2010, 13:53
Thanks everone for your help and pictures about the decking!

I was able to work out from all the pictures the hatches location etc... I was also able to find the pressure hull opening within U-995. So I had the start and end of the piping, I just have to best guess the bit in between. I place a bronze pipe end at the inlet. The piping on the left is for the fuel oil and the one on the right is for the Engine lubricating Oil.

I have not be able so far to workout the piping for the Steam heating system :( :(

(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4558/piping.jpg) (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/piping.jpg/)
Engine lubricating oil & fuel oil piping.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 13 Dec , 2010, 19:26
Hi Maciek, Rokket & Pat

Going way back to our converse about the 'dynamic pressure' inlets for the speedometer in February of this year. http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg4505#msg4505 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg4505#msg4505)

Found this picture of U-543, over at subsim.com from dachshund

(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=19&pictureid=61)

I remember those conversations.  The picture is a bit hard to descipher upside down, but are you talking about the two little clamshells, one on each side of the stem?  Or maybe they're tubes, the pic is kind of dark, 

Anyway, they look like they could be inlets for water speed but I'm still hesitant on that diagnosis.

The same objections as before still apply, that in rough weather, they'd give false readings when the bow cam out of the water on high waves. 

Since then, I also wondered about their accuracy at different depths.  Since they'd have to work on pressure, the speed reading would differe depending on depth.  That doesn't seem workable.  A paddle-whell type knotmeter still makes more sense.

Also, while those are definitely there for a purpose, they don't seem to be standard since most pictures I've seen, there definitely isn't something like that in that location.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 14 Dec , 2010, 06:20
Thanks! I just found them in my Junk E-mail folder >:( Not sure why its just started putting your email in my Junk E-mail folder :-\

You're welcome  ;)

maybe your fire wall or anti virus... From time to time check your junk mail folder  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 17 Dec , 2010, 22:49
copper tubes - interesting. Gatos were bronze. In fact, heaps of the piping was bronze, but painted, you assume steel.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Dec , 2010, 23:00
copper tubes - interesting. Gatos were bronze. In fact, heaps of the piping was bronze, but painted, you assume steel.

I just guess copper, bronze sound good to me  :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 18 Dec , 2010, 13:41
Hi Simon

Do you know why the aft and bow inside torpedo tube look different? 

That's interesting question.

I have done some research and my conclusions are as follows:
The aft tube on U-995 is original one, the forward, stb lower one is modified by Norwegian Navy
to launch some 533mm postwar torpedoes.
The modification was something like this on Type 205 U-Boot - U-9
(http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8308/p1010035gf1.jpg)
(source: http://7ufl.forumieren.com/geschichte-nach-dem-2weltkrieg-f43/u-9-t436.htm)

I think, that the aft one is original comparing it to these visible on war time photos:

(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4397/greywolvesoftheseagerma.jpg)
(source: "Grey Wolves of  the sea, german U-boat type VII", Heinz J. Nowarra)

(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9935/thestoryoftheu505.jpg)
(source: "The story of the U-505", Museum of science and industry, Chicago)

(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4595/u505atchicagodiedeutsch.jpg)
(source: "Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine 1935-1945", vol. 3, Siegfried Breyer, Gerhard Koop)

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7851/u534z.jpg

(http://www.uboataces.com/images/uboat_torpedo_room.jpg)
(source: uboataces.com)

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Photo13.jpg)
(source: uboatarchive.net, visible tube, two guides for piston and piston itself)

The modification of the tube on U-995 looks like there was removed some inner
tube lining and added four guidndes - compare these photos (source: U-995.com)
(http://u-995.com/images/galerie/bugraum/bugraum13.jpg)
(http://u-995.com/images/galerie/ht01.jpg)

The torpedo in tube seems like G7a type, but it can be also some post-war type.
There is visible that torpedo is attached to these guidnes - so it can not be
original/combat fittnes and I would suggest not myself by this tube.

By the way - the piston that is placed near the aft torpedo tube on U-995 also looks like
not original one.

Quote from: NZSnowman
Also during your research have you come across any information about the oil lines? I am trying to find out what the tubing is made of. On the outer torpedo tube at Laboe Naval Memorial it show copper tubings, but I unsure if it is original.

According to U-231 and U-575 survivors interrogation report (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-231INT.htm,
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INT.htm) the tubes were initially made of bronze (and manganese -
see http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-257INT.htm).

But due to shortage of cooper in Germany later tubes were made of steel coated
with anti-corrosion preparation to prevent rusting. See:
U-257 survivors interrogation report - http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-257INT.htm
U-536 survivors interrogation report - http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-536INT.htm
U-172 survivors interrogation report - http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-172INT.htm
U-177 survivors interrogation report - http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-177INT.htm
U-1059 survivors interrogation report - http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-1059INT.htm

Looking at the dates of these reports, it seems that steel tubes were common practise sinse 1944,
but there are mentions, that they begin using steel year before.


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 18 Dec , 2010, 13:42
I started a Wikipedia page today on U-1308. It in no way finish, will slowing keep updating it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-1308 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-1308)

Great idea, thanks for your work, Simon.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 18 Dec , 2010, 14:08
Hi Pat

Anyway, they look like they could be inlets for water speed but I'm still hesitant on that diagnosis.

Well, I don't know how to convince you.
HMS Graph British report on U-570 (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm) says it is pitometer type log.
ONI report on U-570  (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570ONIReport.htm) says the same.
Design study on IXC type (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm) also.
http://u-historia.com/uhistoria/tecnico/articulos/corredera/corredera.htm
(you can use Google Translator)

Quote from: Pat
The same objections as before still apply, that in rough weather, they'd give false readings when the bow cam out of the water on high waves.  

Yes, that's right, the log could be not accurate on high seas. I think that german designers relized it.
This log type except above disadvantage also advantage - it is simpler and less fragile than  paddle-wheel one
(ie depth charges and running aground).

Quote from: Pat
Since then, I also wondered about their accuracy at different depths.  Since they'd have to work on pressure, the speed reading would differe depending on depth.  That doesn't seem workable.  A paddle-whell type knotmeter still makes more sense.

What?? Pitometer type log operating principle is differential pressure between dyniamic pressure
obtained from bow nozzles and static pressure obtainted from midship nozzles. That's why it is independent from depth.

Quote from: Pat
Also, while those are definitely there for a purpose, they don't seem to be standard since most pictures I've seen, there definitely isn't something like that in that location.

I think that the way how bow nozzles were installed was dependent from shipyard (similary as flooding holes) - sometimes
it was installed under the casing, covered by some grid, sometimes it was derived outside...

Did you see any paddle-wheel type log on german u-boats?

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Dec , 2010, 14:39
Quote from: Pat
Also, while those are definitely there for a purpose, they don't seem to be standard since most pictures I've seen, there definitely isn't something like that in that location.

I think that the way how bow nozzles were installed was dependent from shipyard (similary as flooding holes) - sometimes
it was installed under the casing, covered by some grid, sometimes it was derived outside...

--
Regards
Maciek

On this point I am starting to notic the nozzle on Type IX plans

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5673/bow1.jpg)
From a Type IXC

(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3291/bow2je.jpg)
From a Type IXC/40
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Dec , 2010, 14:45
Hi Maciek

Thanks again for your help!!!! I am glad that you also noticed the different inside of the tube, as I thought I was going crazy ;D

I will add this change to the U-995 list ;D

Simon

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Dec , 2010, 15:10
Way back in February 2009 we had a discussion about a TV program on U-480 and Alberich. http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg1624#msg1624 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg1624#msg1624)

I just found it on YouTube

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkZFXNbkz2w&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&playnext=1&index=7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkZFXNbkz2w&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&playnext=1&index=7)
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GCQ8Ava16M&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&playnext=1&index=8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GCQ8Ava16M&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&playnext=1&index=8)
Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zarO5W1nR3M&playnext=1&list=PLE5760B8C205BDAEA&index=9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zarO5W1nR3M&playnext=1&list=PLE5760B8C205BDAEA&index=9)
Part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etKvM-mgae4&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&index=11&playnext=2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etKvM-mgae4&p=E5760B8C205BDAEA&index=11&playnext=2)
Part 5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwuclvdJlkw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwuclvdJlkw)

It look like they now have a english version of this TV program on U-480  :)

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/stealth-submarine-3948/Photos#tab-Overview (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/stealth-submarine-3948/Photos#tab-Overview)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 19 Dec , 2010, 03:23
Hello

I was wondering have you seen any information for either magnetic or gyro compass for the Gato? I been looking for information for the U-boat but not having much luck :(

Some time ago we have discussed magnetic projection compass installation.
I would like to supplement some informations (taken from "Submarine Design" by Urlich Gabler).
Quote
Until World War II, projection-type magnetic compasses were used as backup. These compasses were installed above the pressure hull in a nonmagneticzone with a spheric radius of about 1 m. Image transmission into the pressure hull was accomplished by lenses and prisms, and the image was projected onto a ground-glass plate. Submarine magnetic compasses cannot be adjusted accurately because of the interference caused by the heavy currents in the electrical networks and by the long pressure hull.

Back to the gyro-compasses - these ones used on german U-Boats were made by Anschutz, and were different than these used by Allies.
I do not have exact description of such compass, but from sources below you can find out how it looked and worked.

http://www.archive.org/details/anschutzgyrocom00ansciala - description of Anschutz systems used before WWII.

In Type IXC Design Study (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm):
Quote
The gyro compass is of the Anschuetz bell type, which has been manufactured and installed commercially for many years.

Description of the gyro-compass from British Report on HMS Graph (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm)
Quote
   
            An Anschutz gyro-compass equipment of normal type is fitted.  The sensitive element is in the form of a sphere containing two gyros and a sealed damping trough.  The sphere is completely immersed in an acidulated water-glycerine mixture of suitable density to make it nearly but not quite buoyant, and it is supported inside the follow-up member by the repulsion effect of a coil inside the sphere carrying A-C current.  The 3-phase supply to the gyro rotors is taken through the liquid between conducting polar caps and an equatorial band.  Water is circulated from a tank through cooling coils in the compass bowl by means of a pump.  Follow-up is controlled by the difference of the liquid resistance path between two electrodes in the follow-up member and the edges of the centre band of the equatorial electrode on the sphere.  This difference controls a valve amplifier, the output of which drives a motor and transmitter.  The transmitter supplies a repeater motor on the compass drives the follow-up member.  Transmission is of the A-C type at 50 volts, 50 cycles, somewhat similar to Magslip or Selsyn, but the repeater motor makes one revolution per degree and is therefore comparable as regard torque with an "M" type motor.  In all A-C systems, however, the repeater load reacts on the transmitter and thus limits the maximum load which can be accepted.    
            The amplifier and control equipment in this installation has been fitted all in two boxes, thus reducing the overall sizes compared with ordinary Anschutz equipment.    
            A prism sight has been fitted at the window of the compass bowl to allow convenient observation of the sphere itself and a bracket close by to secure to steering gear, so that the ship can be steered by the compass, although the follow-up is not in operation.    
            A pressure resistant azimuth repeater is fitted on the bridge, and has a window about 4 in. diameter through which can be seen a cyclometer type dial giving the course in degrees, a circular dial giving 10
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Dec , 2010, 11:43
Thanks again, Maciek.

I found this picture of the gyro on the net but I can not rememeber where.

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9073/kreiselkompassschnittan.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Dec , 2010, 22:36
Hi Maciek

Do you know how the aft torpedo tube is fixed to the pressure hull?

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 21 Dec , 2010, 00:57
Simon

Do you know how the aft torpedo tube is fixed to the pressure hull?

Maybe this helps...

(http://u-995.com/images/galerie/hecktorpedoraum/hecktorpedo02.jpg)
(http://u-995.com/images/galerie/hecktorpedoraum/hecktorpedo03.jpg)
source: u-995.com

(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/okrety/wyposazenie/wyrzutnie_torpedowe/fot_15.jpg)
source:  http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/component/option,com_flexicontent/Itemid,76/cid,66/id,337/view,items

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Dec , 2010, 01:31
Thanks Maciek! It is the same way as the bow :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Dec , 2010, 01:57
Thanks Maciek! It is the same way as the bow :)

After a second look there a very small different on how the outer tube is bolted on to the pressure hull. I will hopley post drawings toworrow.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 21 Dec , 2010, 04:54
gryos (whether compass or guidance or science toy) are VERY cool, and they seemed to use them effectively in the 1930s. Very interesting stuff!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Dec , 2010, 15:34
Hi Maciek

In Drawing 1 "Torpedo tube flooding and drainage installation" where is drain valve (i)? Is it the valve next (right) of the piston in Photo 3 "Aft torpedo tube on U-995"? 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 22 Dec , 2010, 02:34
Simon

In Drawing 1 "Torpedo tube flooding and drainage installation" where is drain valve (i)? Is it the valve next (right) of the piston in Photo 3 "Aft torpedo tube on U-995"?  

Unfortunately, I cannot find any good, clear picture showing the drain valve of aft tube - it is covered by the piston.
The most clearer ist that:
(http://jaegers.net/typo3temp/pics/82a237fc25.jpg)
(source: http://jaegers.net/index.php?id=53&L=1%27%60%28%5B%7B%5E%7E)

But if you look at the photo 16
(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/okrety/wyposazenie/wyrzutnie_torpedowe/fot_15.jpg)
you will see that arrangements is similar or even the same as for forward tubes, so the vavle must be
at the same place.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Dec , 2010, 03:25
Thanks Maciek.

I am afraid there going to be lots more questions for you, as I have just started to drawing the piping to the tubes  ;D ;)

I was able to locate the drain valve (i) in Photo 4. Forward torpedo room on U-190  it is the 3-way valve under the cut-off valves (g) You can just made out the three pipes. You can see it also clearly in Photo 11. Forward torpedo room on U-995 (below)
(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/okrety/wyposazenie/wyrzutnie_torpedowe/fot_10.jpg)

Below is a close-up of the 3-way valve.
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6630/pipe.jpg)

So this makes me believe this valve is on the starboard size of the aft tube, somewhere behind the open hatch door of Photo 3. Aft torpedo tube on U-995


Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Dec , 2010, 10:37
Hi Pat

There a few stringer throughout the Type VII. I am trying to figure out if they run along the hull or span the full width of the hull. In general, do stringers run just next to the hull or do most usually span across the whole hull?

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 28 Dec , 2010, 23:02
I'd have to know more information about this stringer.  Is this one on the pressure hull or just in the casing?

If it's in the PH, it would probably run the entire length of the boat.  As the purpose of a stringer is basically to keep the correct spacing of the ribs and add some strength, there'd be no point in putting it in unless it went the entire length.

However, if it's a stringer in the casing, then I'd have to know where in the casing you're talking about.  Because the casing of a U-boat is a sort of add-on, it's possible for the stringer to be only partial length.  It might stop when the side of the casing meets the PH, or it might go the whole length, or it might only be a partial strengthener for a limited section of the casing. 

I can see on the outside of the casing, a double line of rivets that look like they might be the attachment of a stringer running just under the free-flow holes both fore and aft, but it looks like it stops when it meets the saddle tank.  Is that where you're talking about?

Usually a stringer will be added inside the ribs, but it's possible in some constructs for it to be faired into the ribs, especially in a U-boat casing where the ribs are thicker than normal.

In surface ships, a stringer is also commonly a point where an interior deck attaches, in which case it depends on the deck locations whether it goes the length of the hull or not.  However, obviously that's not a consideration for a U-boat casing, since the only decks are inside the PH or the top of the casing.  However, it's possible for there to be a stringer inside the PH to be used for attaching the deck.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Dec , 2010, 20:57
Hi Pat

Thanks for the information about the stringers. I was starting to get the additional information about the stringers for you when I noticed on plans they only run along the casting, so I answered my own question. I have found four stringers so far, two in the bow and other two in the stern. They range from approximately 1 to 4 m long. They are only single rivets (see below). Below is you can see the two stern stringers locations on U-995. Also from Westwood's you can see they only run along the side. Still trying to figaure out how they are fix to the casting.

(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8728/img5959k.jpg)
Pictures from U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml

(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/671/new1lh.jpg)
Image from The Type VII U-Boat (Anatomy of the Ship)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Jan , 2011, 13:14
Does anyone have any pictures of the bow plating? I am trying it get a view of the outlet valve at the bow.

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 02 Jan , 2011, 01:22
awesome gyro! Sorry Simon, no pix
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Jan , 2011, 02:03
Evidence of evolution of the U-boat.

I started to redraw the bow section of my U-1308. I have been using the Fritz K
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 04 Jan , 2011, 23:54
Simon, I wish I had your drawing skills.  Beautiful as always!

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 05 Jan , 2011, 15:24
Hi Simon

I am afraid there going to be lots more questions for you, as I have just started to drawing the piping to the tubes  ;D ;)

Go ahead, I'm still learning al lot - especially while researching the things, you asked about ;)

Your post made me wondering a lot.
Below there are things, I have been able to research for last few days.

Part One

Quote from: NZSnowman
In Drawing 1 "Torpedo tube flooding and drainage installation" where is drain valve (i)? Is it the valve next (right) of the piston in Photo 3 "Aft torpedo tube on U-995"?

Do you mean the valve marked with red arrow?
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6466/fot3u.jpg)
(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/component/option,com_flexicontent/Itemid,76/cid,66/id,337/view,items)

I think that this is valve marked as (f) (look at the part related to aft tube) on the drawing:
(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate25.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DesignBook.htm)

With blue arrow I have marked flood line, with green - vent/blow line and yellow - port part of torpedo compensating tank 1.

(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4568/afttube.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DesignBook.htm)

Here is how I imagine myself this arrangement (sorry for hand drawing).
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9339/20110105029.jpg)

And one more view:
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7104/img6297m.jpg)
(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

red arrow - flood line
yellow arrow - branch to hull valve and cooling pump
green arrow - vent/blow line
blue arrow - valve (f)

I think that pipe part between red and blue arrows is blanked place after flow meter.


Part two

Quote from: NZSnowman
So this makes me believe this valve is on the starboard size of the aft tube, somewhere behind the open hatch door of Photo 3. Aft torpedo tube on U-995

Do you mean the valve marked with red arrow on the following photo?
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/9700/fot3a.jpg)

I think that it can not be the drain valve because of two reasons:

If you look on the following photos you will see the the drain valve handle of the bottom tube in the same location
as for top tubes.

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8734/u9952k563.jpg)
(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/galeria/okrety/u-995/)

(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2021/torpedorohr1.jpg)
(courtesy of Britta Fischotter)

Also, drain valve located in place you pointed would make difficult to implement interlock between drain valve and opening doors gear.


I think that this is valve marked as (v) o the diagram

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate25.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DesignBook.htm)

This is valve used to select which torpedo compensating tank 2 or 3 is to be used to flood/drain the tubes.


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 05 Jan , 2011, 16:22
After another while of wondering I think that arrangement for the aft tube is as follows:
(sorry for even worse hand drawing)

(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8036/img6287k.jpg)
(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4568/afttube.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DesignBook.htm)

(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5185/16248649.jpg)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Jan , 2011, 16:55
Hi Maciek

Thanks for your time into this!

About part two

I also come to the same outcome as you about this valve only a few hours ago ;D I just could not get it to fix the plans, so I started looking in other places. Then I also notice the four drain valve handle. I will start drawing this up today and post within a few days.

From the picture below I have located the four opening in the bow casting for the drainage pipe (in Orange) however, they look a little small for the draining the tube. What do you think?

► Have you seen any measurement for the length of the torpedo tube within U-boat? I got a measurement of 3020 mm does this look right? It matches very near to the total length of 7552 mm.

(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7974/new2v.jpg)
From U-Boote Crews by J Delize

(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1508/typevii41view3d.jpg)
Here valve (v), I will join it up to the tank 2 or 3 later.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Jan , 2011, 21:30
Hi Maciek

Here valve (i) including the interlocker. I was able to located two name plates but unable to make out that are on them :( The valve also a small bleed line (left) I try to follow it but was only able to follow it for about 40 cm it was heading to the Control panel (Ausgleicharmatur) in Photo 5.
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1508/typevii41view3d.jpg)

(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4552/new2d.th.jpg) (http://img809.imageshack.us/i/new2d.jpg/)
Here the basic layout some far (will need to add the piping and things to get the right scale and postions). The blue pipe go back to tank 2. I could not location the orange drainage pipe on U-995 (maybe is has been removed :-\)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Jan , 2011, 23:29
I wonder how this got on a German U-boat  ;D ;)

(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/742/new1r.jpg)
Norwegian  ;D ;D - Look like they miss this name plate.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Jan , 2011, 02:41
Hi Simon

Have you seen any measurement for the length of the torpedo tube within U-boat? I got a measurement of 3020 mm does this look right? It matches very near to the total length of 7552 mm.

Unfortunately I have never met exact measurement of the part of the tube inside and outside the boat.
I suppose, that for that moment you have to estimate it from the drawings.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Jan , 2011, 02:50
From the picture below I have located the four opening in the bow casting for the drainage pipe (in Orange) however, they look a little small for the draining the tube. What do you think?

I think that it has to be opening for the drain pipe - in my opinion this is the only possibilty.

You can compare the size of the pipe in US Navy tubes - it isn't much different:
http://maritime.org/fleetsub/tubes/plate1.htm

Although I must admit that there is one hole too many for each tube - I'm trying to figure it out.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Jan , 2011, 03:02
Meantime I figure out one more part of installation:

(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3826/u9952k553.jpg)
(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/galeria/okrety/u-995/)

blue arrow - hull valve (a)

compare valve handle with:
(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate1.jpg)
(source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)

yellow arrow - valve (h)
green arrow - connection to equalizing pressure
red arrow - connection to compensating tanks

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate25.jpg)
(source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Jan , 2011, 04:22
Here valve (i) including the interlocker. I was able to located two name plates but unable to make out that are on them :( The valve also a small bleed line (left) I try to follow it but was only able to follow it for about 40 cm it was heading to the Control panel (Ausgleicharmatur) in Photo 5.
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1508/typevii41view3d.jpg)

Great work Simon!
Here is another view of the drain valve:
(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/phocagallery/okrety/u995/u995_2k5_56.jpg)
(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/galeria/okrety/u-995/)

I cannot figure out at this moment what this small bleed line is for.

Quote from: NZSnowman
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4552/new2d.th.jpg) (http://img809.imageshack.us/i/new2d.jpg/)
Here the basic layout some far (will need to add the piping and things to get the right scale and postions). The blue pipe go back to tank 2. I could not location the orange drainage pipe on U-995 (maybe is has been removed :-\)

I think, that drainage line for the top tubes are hard to see because they are between the tubes and hull, as well you cannot locate the lines for bottom, because they are under the deck.

(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2444/new2vd.jpg)

This is forwardo torpedo room of U-164 - type IXC boat, but arrangement seems the same.
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4711/u16420441vozm.jpg)
(source: Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp IX C)

blue arrow - opening for the shaft of the muzzle door opening gear
green arrow - compressed air pipe for the mine bolt actuator
orange arrow - drainage pipe
yellow arrow - vent/blow pipe
red arrow - compressed air line for ejecting mines
white arrow - compressed air line for ejecting mines

I have doubts about two last openings - according to drawing below, there should be only one...
I'm gonna investigate it thorough...

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate25.jpg)
(source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 07 Jan , 2011, 09:17
Hi Simon,

A few weeks back you requested a photo showing how the aerial met with the aft deck. This should help -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIG-PHOTO-U-BOOT-U-BOAT-U-212-CREWMEN-W-FLAG-DECK-/110630725459?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c21ae753

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2011, 11:38
Hi Simon,

A few weeks back you requested a photo showing how the aerial met with the aft deck. This should help -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIG-PHOTO-U-BOOT-U-BOAT-U-212-CREWMEN-W-FLAG-DECK-/110630725459?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c21ae753

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie!!! The picture is wonderful. It nice and clear!

Dougie, when you look at the small section between the deck and wire block, does it look like solid metal or metal wire?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2011, 12:17
Meantime I figure out one more part of installation:

(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3826/u9952k553.jpg)
(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/galeria/okrety/u-995/)

blue arrow - hull valve (a)

compare valve handle with:
(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate1.jpg)
(source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)

yellow arrow - valve (h)
green arrow - connection to equalizing pressure
red arrow - connection to compensating tanks

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate25.jpg)
(source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)

--
Regards
Maciek

Great work!!!

To my understanding the inlet is only on the port side of the boat, is that right Maciek ???

I have some original German measurement for this inlet for the pressure hull. I will measure this out on the outside of the boat and see how it matches on the inside.

Maciek, have you seen the information that Dani from http://www.u-historia.com/ got from Joachim Scherneck-Czech, Archives assistant in Military historical training centre of the naval college M
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2011, 12:35
Hi Simon

Have you seen any measurement for the length of the torpedo tube within U-boat? I got a measurement of 3020 mm does this look right? It matches very near to the total length of 7552 mm.

Unfortunately I have never met exact measurement of the part of the tube inside and outside the boat.
I suppose, that for that moment you have to estimate it from the drawings.

--
Regards
Maciek

Thanks, the measurement of 3020 mm will be either one of the following
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2011, 12:47
Maciek, I read that the late war Type VIIC/41 lost the function of using mines. If, so that would happened to say the opening in the bow cap casting for the compressed air pipe for the mine bolt actuator? Would they just wield up the opening or do you think they redesign the bow cap for the Type VIIC/41 ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 07 Jan , 2011, 13:00
Hi Simon,

Thought you would like the image :)

I reckon there is a piece on the deck that might be triangular (or something like a triangle). The block at the end of the jumping wire connects around this triangular piece, with either a rivet or a nut/bolt holding the block onto the triangle.  That's what it looks to me.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2011, 13:27
Hi Dougie

I am easy to please ;D

I think a triangular make 100% more sense than my idea! I will check my drawing and see of there any framing under the deck in the vicinity of the fix point.

Two things I just notice, one a white strip across the deck - training boat?

And a wield line near the stern of the casting, I have not see this before, will need to check this.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Jan , 2011, 16:21
Hi Simon

To my understanding the inlet is only on the port side of the boat, is that right Maciek ???

That's right.

I have some original German measurement for this inlet for the pressure hull. I will
measure this out on the outside of the boat and see how it matches on the inside.

Where have you got this measurement?
Is it from the link you gave below, or some else source?
Please give the info, if this match.

Maciek, have you seen the information that Dani from http://www.u-historia.com/ got from Joachim Scherneck-Czech,
Archives assistant in Military historical training centre of the naval college M
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Jan , 2011, 16:25
Maciek, I read that the late war Type VIIC/41 lost the function of using mines. If, so that would happened to say the opening in the bow cap casting for the compressed air pipe for the mine bolt actuator? Would they just wield up the opening or do you think they redesign the bow cap for the Type VIIC/41 ???

Yes, I think, that they would only weld up the openings for the compressed air pipe
for mine bolt actuator as well as for mine discharge lines.
I don't think that redesigning the bow was necessery.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jan , 2011, 21:51

I have some original German measurement for this inlet for the pressure hull. I will
measure this out on the outside of the boat and see how it matches on the inside.

Where have you got this measurement?
Is it from the link you gave below, or some else source?
Please give the info, if this match.

The original German measurements are from the Fritz K
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 08 Jan , 2011, 12:59
Here I have got next few parts of flood installation.

For the port side:

(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3826/u9952k553.jpg)
(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/galeria/okrety/u-995/)

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4864/porty.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate7.htm)

For the starboard side:

(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/223/img1895w.jpg)
(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/580/stbp.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate7.htm)

I think that blue arrow points the blank place, where the flow meter was installed.


--
Regards
Maciek

Hi Maciek

Would not the Black Arrow be the flow meter? It found on both side, and its look like the lid flip open to display a counter at the top.

Also how good is your German (or anyone) I just can not like out all the letters on this name plate. Also below the name plate you can see a flow arrow which you usually always found a flow meters.
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/769/new1ew.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 08 Jan , 2011, 13:25
Hi Simon


Would not the Black Arrow be the flow meter? It found on both side, and its look like the lid flip open to display a counter at the top.

Also how good is your German (or anyone) I just can not like out all the letters on this name plate. Also below the name plate you can see a flow arrow which you usually always found a flow meters.
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/769/new1ew.jpg)

Great photo.
It is clearly visible, the plate says:
Flutv Z
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Jan , 2011, 12:13
Hi Maciek

► Do you have any views of the piping (Red Arrow) to the left of this photograph? I am trying to follow the pipe out of the flow meter.

► Also from below, the valve to the sea: Originally I was thinking this was only an inlet valve, but now I think it an inlet and out valve, is this correct?

(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3826/u9952k553.jpg)


(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4810/new2hw.jpg)
► I think I have located the two main drain valves (f) from the drainage system.

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate6.jpg)
Plate 6:  Trimming, compensating and drainage system
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 09 Jan , 2011, 15:13
Hi Simon

► Do you have any views of the piping (Red Arrow) to the left of this photograph? I am trying to follow the pipe out of the flow meter.

Unfortunately I do not have any views, moreover, viewing below pictures, I think that this piping is led under the deck/casing and it is hard to see.

(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/phocagallery/okrety/u995/u995_12.jpg)
(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/phocagallery/okrety/u995/u995_13.jpg)
(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/phocagallery/okrety/u995/u995_14.jpg)
(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/phocagallery/okrety/u995/u995_15.jpg)
(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/galeria/okrety/u-995/)

► Also from below, the valve to the sea: Originally I was thinking this was only an inlet valve, but now I think it an inlet and out valve, is this correct?

Yes, the valve can take water from the sea as well as can be used to blow water from compensating tanks.

I think I have located the two main drain valves (f) from the drainage system.

I'm sure you identified the valves correctly.

Where does this photo come from?
Is this from uboataces.com U-995 DVD?


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Jan , 2011, 16:00
Unfortunately I do not have any views, moreover, viewing below pictures, I think that this piping is led under the deck/casing and it is hard to see.

I am sure I have located the two pipes I am looking for from photographs. One is directly under the personal lockers and another pipe runs along the pressure hull near the floor. I am sure I know with pipe belong to which system, base on the size of the pipes, but I was hoping to double check this.

Where does this photo come from?
Is this from uboataces.com U-995 DVD?

They are from a member of the SubSim Forum. You have PM.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Jan , 2011, 21:34
Inlet/outlet valve with flow meter including piping

(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1079/97526128.jpg)
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3990/83116403.jpg)

(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1059/55605117.th.jpg) (http://img407.imageshack.us/i/55605117.jpg/) (http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5877/85037762.th.jpg) (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/85037762.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 10 Jan , 2011, 02:11
I am sure I have located the two pipes I am looking for from photographs. One is directly under the personal lockers and another pipe runs along the pressure hull near the floor. I am sure I know with pipe belong to which system, base on the size of the pipes, but I was hoping to double check this.

Well, in such case I can't wait to see the drawings :)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 10 Jan , 2011, 02:13
Inlet/outlet valve with flow meter including piping

As usuall great work Simon! :)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 10 Jan , 2011, 02:16
Simon

I have got request - could you give me the distance of the
mine stop bolt (marked with red arrow) to the rear and fore end of torpedo tube?

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9204/70950212.jpg)

--
Regads
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Jan , 2011, 08:39
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2923/graphic1i.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 10 Jan , 2011, 09:02
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2923/graphic1i.jpg)

Thank you very much, Simon ;)

--
Regads
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 13 Jan , 2011, 06:10
Hi Simon



► Also from below, the valve to the sea: Originally I was thinking this was only an inlet valve, but now I think it an inlet and out valve, is this correct?


Yes, the valve can take water from the sea as well as can be used to blow water from compensating tanks.


I have been thinking about this hull valve, and although there are no objections
towards 'bidirectional' valve (no stop- or check-valve), now I guess, that it was used as
intake only.

I am convinced, that pipe line leading to the compensating tank is installed as you
have drawn on below drawing - it ends at the top of the tank).

(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1059/55605117.jpg)

If so - the tank can not be empted by pressured air, and water can not be blown through the hull valve.
To accomplish it, the pipe should be led to the bottom of the tank (as the blue pipe
leading to the torpedo tube.

So the tanks had to be emptedy by means of drainage installation and main drain or auxilary drain/trimming pumps.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Jan , 2011, 21:19
Hi Maciek

I think you are right. If you look at Plate 11:  High pressure air system & Plate 12:  Low pressure or service air system there no air lines going to Compensating Tank 2 & 3. The only a air line is to the Forward Trim Tank (this is the air line you can see in P1100408.JPG :-\) On Plate 6:  Trimming, compensating and drainage system you can see the piping to drain Compensatings Tank 2 & 3.

I need to update the blue pipe, as I think I have make the diameter to big (I have it at 70 mm now but I starting to think it more like 60 mm) and I am almost certain it does not go through the Forward Trim Tank but long the top like is the picture (P1100408.JPG). I also need to add it to both starboard and port side of the boat.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 14 Jan , 2011, 01:54
Hi Simon


I think you are right. If you look at Plate 11:  High pressure air system & Plate 12:  Low pressure or service air system there no air lines going to Compensating Tank 2 & 3. The only a air line is to the Forward Trim Tank (this is the air line you can see in P1100408.JPG :-\) On Plate 6:  Trimming, compensating and drainage system you can see the piping to drain Compensatings Tank 2 & 3.

In fact, there is connection from Low pressure or service air system
(=> torpedo compensating tanks 2 and 3) through the Ausgleicharmatur - look at
Plate 25:  Torpedo tube firing, venting, flooding and drainage systems - LP Air Distributor and through valves
(c2) and (v) to compensating tanks and valves (q) to torpedo tubes.

The water was moved from compensating tanks to torpedo tubes (and vice versa) by means of low pressurized air.
But water could leave the compensating tanks only through the blue pipe led down to the bottom of tank.

I need to update the blue pipe, as I think I have make the diameter to big (I have it at 70 mm now but I starting to think it more like 60 mm) and I am almost certain it does not go through the Forward Trim Tank but long the top like is the picture (P1100408.JPG). I also need to add it to both starboard and port side of the boat.

I agree with you about the blue pipe.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Jan , 2011, 13:23
Hi Maciek

I have a few questions

In plate 25, the air line to torpedo compensating tanks 2 and 3, would only be an overflow or overpressure line and could not be normally or never used to blow the water out of these tanks?

Why would you want to move water from the compensating tanks to torpedo tubes? Was it to equal the pressure the tube before opening the outer door?

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 14 Jan , 2011, 15:20

In plate 25, the air line to torpedo compensating tanks 2 and 3, would only be an overflow or overpressure line and could not be normally or never used to blow the water out of these tanks?


This line was used to vent/overpressure the compensating tanks during flooding these tanks either
from sea or from torpedo tubes (when tubes were drained), or to blown water from compensating tanks
to torpedo tubes (but not to the sea).



Why would you want to move water from the compensating tanks to torpedo tubes?
Was it to equal the pressure the tube before opening the outer door?


That's right. To open outer (muzzle) torpedo tube door, the tube had to be flooded and
connected for a while with a sea to equalize the pressure.
To flood the tube, ~370 l of sea water had to be taken (per one tube). If there were
four tubes flooded, over 1 ton of water had to be taken.

To avoid such great change of boat's weight (which was carefully compensated previously),
the water previously stored in torpedo compensating tanks was used.
The water was blown to torpedo tubes by means of pressurized air.
Thus the weight of the boat was not changed, and the change of the trim
was relative small.

After launching the torpedo and closing, the tube was full of water. Then the water from tube
was blown by means of pressurized air to compenating tanks.

I tried to describe process of flooding and draining the tubes in the following text
http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/component/option,com_flexicontent/Itemid,76/cid,66/id,337/view,items
paragraph 2. Torepedo tube flooding and drainage installation

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Jan , 2011, 23:45
Hi Maciek

On Plate 11:  High pressure air system, http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm) do you know where is pressure hull valve A1 for the high pressure air bank 6 is?

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 15 Jan , 2011, 14:48
Hello


I think that this is valve marked as (v) o the diagram

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate25.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DesignBook.htm)

This is valve used to select which torpedo compensating tank 2 or 3 is to be used to flood/drain the tubes.


I was wrong guesing this valve - for sure it can not be this one marked as (v).
I have an idea, what can it be, but I have to do some more researches to make sure.


On Plate 11:  High pressure air system, http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm) do you know where is pressure hull valve A1 for the high pressure air bank 6 is?


Simon, it's hard to locate it, but I'm working on it :)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Jan , 2011, 18:18
Hi Maciek

Does tube II & IV drain into Compensating Tank 2 and tube I & III drain into Compensating Tank 3?

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Jan , 2011, 18:42

On Plate 11:  High pressure air system, http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate11.htm) do you know where is pressure hull valve A1 for the high pressure air bank 6 is?


Simon, it's hard to locate it, but I'm working on it :)

--
Regards
Maciek

Maciek, I found it!!! ;D ;D I will post pictures soon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Jan , 2011, 21:13
Hi Maciek

I was able to found the valves and filters for high pressure air bank 4, 5 & 6.
(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6867/planal.jpg)
Fig. 1. Plate 11:  High pressure air system. (www.uboatarchive.net)

(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/619/portside.jpg)
Fig. 2. Port side bulkhead. HP bank 6 - Valve A1 with filter.

(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8718/starboard.jpg)
Fig. 3. Starboard side bulkhead. HP bank 4 & 5 - Valve D's with the two filters.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Jan , 2011, 22:46
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1228/hpbanks.th.jpg) (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/hpbanks.jpg/)
High pressure air bank 4 and 5.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 18 Jan , 2011, 06:53
There was a program on TV just last week about the Japanese mini-subs that were sent to attack Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941 that deals with the buoyancy compensation when firing a torpedo.

There were 5 subs sent in on the attack and historians can account for what happened to only 4 of the subs.  These boats were either destroyed or washed ashore before they could attack.

However, they always wondered what happened to the 5th boat and the program was about what evidence they had that it might have succeeded in firing both its torpedoes.

I won
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Jan , 2011, 11:27
Thanks, Pat. That sound great. Can you rememeber the name of the program? I would be kind to watch it if it comes to New Zealand.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Jan , 2011, 14:39
I found a Norwegian label on a small box attached to the torpedo tube, I am trying to translate it back to German. Does this look right below, to our German specking members.


Norwegian

Baughette
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 21 Jan , 2011, 05:02
Hi Simon

Does tube II & IV drain into Compensating Tank 2 and tube I & III drain into Compensating Tank 3?

In the first approach is seems so:
(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate7.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate7.htm)

But in Design Study for Type IXC (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm)
in chapters "9C-S49 COMPRESSED AIR PLANT" and "9C-S88 DAMAGE CONTROL"
I have read:

Quote
40.  The two torpedo low pressure manifolds are each provided with a connection for pneumatic tools.
a line to the marker buoy stowage, and a line to the group of valves which control the flooding, blowing
and draining of the torpedo tubes.  This last group of valves, for each tube, consists of a stop valve, a relief
valve and pressure gauge, a four-way cock which admits air to the torpedo tube on the WRT tank while
venting the other one of the pair, and a three-way cock to permit selective venting of either or both ends
of the torpedo tube.  There is also an individual cock in the vent line of each WRT tank and a common three-way
cock which permits selective use of either WRT tank by any torpedo tube.

Quote
47.  The only tributaries of the torpedo low pressure air manifolds which call for description are the
combination of valves related to the torpedo tube filling and draining.  On this combination, operation
of one four-way cock admits air under pressure either to the WRT tank or to the torpedo tube with
which the cock is associated.  Related operation of a cock on the tube drain line then permits flow of
water from the WRT tank to the tube, or vice versa, as desired.  Further, the operation of an additional
three-way cock in the air line permits blowing or venting one or both ends of the tube.  A further
three-way cock in the sir line to the WRT tank, when operated together with a three-way cock on the
common drain line to the WRT tanks, permits a choice of draining to or flooding from either the port or
starboard WRT tank.

Quote
A further possibility of controlling list exists in the WRT tank air and water connections in each torpedo
room, which are such as to permit water from one WRT tank to be blown into the other, or to permit flooding
of either WRT tank, there being a port and starboard WRT tank in each torpedo room.

WRT tank - Water Round Torpedo Tank - in german terms - Torpedo Compensating Tank/Torpedo Zelle

(I know, that it is description for type IXC, but it I'm sure, the similar arrangement was on type VII boats).

I have also investigated the original plate 25 (Be- und Entw
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 21 Jan , 2011, 08:17
Hello

Images for starboard side I'm going to post in the evening.

Here are my guesses for starboard side:

On the photo below I marked the additional valve, which is missing on the drawings

(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/4670/u9952k554.jpg)
(source: http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/galeria/okrety/u-995/)

Below I marked the vent valve (equivalent of k valve - I hope) and junction, where was
thee-way cock v but was removed because of cutting the exit door in pressure hull.

(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6308/img1895j.jpg)
(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

Below two more views of these part of installation:

(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6255/p1100403i.jpg)

(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2663/img1896b.jpg)
(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

I'm not quite sure about above assumptions - I do not have good enough photos
to confirm that. The best way would be visiting the Laboe :-)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Jan , 2011, 13:37
Hi Maciek

Still going through all your data above, however I really like the picture of forward torpedo room of U-534 after her rising. It made me think I would do a quick search on the net to see if I could find any other of the torpedo room. I am still looking, but I did noticed something!

There a picture of a G7es/T5
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Jan , 2011, 14:55
Hi Maciek

Thanks for the information and your time. I will update my drawing later.

(I know, that it is description for type IXC, but it I'm sure, the similar arrangement was on type VII boats).

Yes, were are many similar systems & arrangement between the Type VIIC and the Type IX
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 21 Jan , 2011, 16:19
Thanks, Pat. That sound great. Can you rememeber the name of the program? I would be kind to watch it if it comes to New Zealand.

If I remember correctly, it was a program called "The American Experience" and it was the Buffalo, New York, PBS (Public Broadcasting System), station WNED.  I'm sure they must have a website.

The American Experience is an ongoing series that takes some event in US history that might have some unknown or controversial details and every week goes into whatever is known about it.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Jan , 2011, 22:37
The opening/closing of the out torpedo tube door

(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2742/tube4.jpg) 
Fig. 1. The torpedo tube.


(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/807/tube1.jpg)
Fig. 2. Inner section of the torpedo tube - The control rod ran alone the top of the torpedo tube. 

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3654/tube2s.jpg)
Fig. 3. Outer section of the torpedo tube - The control rod ran alone the top of the torpedo tube, outside the pressure hull. 

(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7964/tube3.jpg)
Fig. 4. A close-up view of the screw gears, control rods and chain system linking the two sub-systems together.

(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9981/fulltube.th.jpg) (http://img808.imageshack.us/i/fulltube.jpg/)
Fig. 5. A full view of this system.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Jan , 2011, 00:27
I'm not quite sure about above assumptions - I do not have good enough photos
to confirm that. The best way would be visiting the Laboe :-)

http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_06.php (http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_06.php)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 22 Jan , 2011, 02:03
Hi Simon

There a picture of a G7es/T5
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 22 Jan , 2011, 02:04
The opening/closing of the out torpedo tube door

Fig. 1. The torpedo tube.


Fig. 2. Inner section of the torpedo tube - The control rod ran alone the top of the torpedo tube. 

Fig. 3. Outer section of the torpedo tube - The control rod ran alone the top of the torpedo tube, outside the pressure hull. 

Fig. 4. A close-up view of the screw gears, control rods and chain system linking the two sub-systems together.

Fig. 5. A full view of this system.

Simon, it looks awesome !

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 22 Jan , 2011, 02:09

I imagine that the parallel valve have to be on the other, starboard side, but I don't
have any direct evidence - there is no good photo of that part of room - it is always
hidden by opened inner tube door or shaft gear of the manual drive for diving planes  :-\


I think that I can see valve handle on this photo (but maybe it's my imagination).
The fragment in the rectangle is a part of image after simple processing/sharpening.

(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4555/53681541.jpg)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 22 Jan , 2011, 07:21
Hello

I think that I can see valve handle on this photo (but maybe it's my imagination).

It was my imagination. But maybe this valve is the one I looked for:

(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1583/stbdrainselectorvalve.jpg)

The screenshot is from the link the Simon posted above:
http://www.deutschland-panorama.de/museen/laboe_technisches_museum/ps/10_1051_06.php#oben


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Jan , 2011, 15:41
Thanks, Pat. That sound great. Can you rememeber the name of the program? I would be kind to watch it if it comes to New Zealand.

If I remember correctly, it was a program called "The American Experience" and it was the Buffalo, New York, PBS (Public Broadcasting System), station WNED.  I'm sure they must have a website.

The American Experience is an ongoing series that takes some event in US history that might have some unknown or controversial details and every week goes into whatever is known about it.

Thanks Pat! Found it.
http://www.wgbh.org/articles/Killer-Subs-In-Pearl-Harbor-1399 (http://www.wgbh.org/articles/Killer-Subs-In-Pearl-Harbor-1399) Can not watch it in NZ :( but its also YouTube :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Jan , 2011, 15:51
Hi Maciek & All

(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7974/new2v.jpg)
From U-Boote Crews by J Delize

I have for a long time, wondered why the flanges for the drainage lines were so large and on the outside of the bow casting as all the other flanges are on the inside. From the drawing below you can see why now. There so little room to have the flanges on the inside.

(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1695/tube5.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 24 Jan , 2011, 02:03
 :o :o :o

OK ?  ;D

Awesome work, so much devotion, passion, questions, RESULTS...

I'm one of your biggest Fans Snowman !

BTW : check your e-mail trash-folder.  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Jan , 2011, 00:51
The drainage system for compensating tanks 2 & 3, and Forward Trim Tank

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate7.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate7.htm)

Red arrows are the drainage system for compensating tanks 2 & 3 and blue arrows are the drainage system for Forward Trim Tank. You may see that the drainage pipe for the Forward Trim Tank (blue arrows) goes through the compensating tank 2, this is because there no room to directly contact this pipe to the Forward Trim Tank as the high pressure air bottle is in the way.

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8604/pipe2.jpg)

(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/1149/pipe1.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 26 Jan , 2011, 09:40
Hi

Accidentally I have found following photos:

(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/101/klappmast1.jpg)

(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2421/klappmast2.jpg)

(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4719/klappmast3.jpg)

(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6819/klappmast4.jpg)

(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2788/mastwithoutballfloatval.jpg)

(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2315/snorkelvalve.jpg)

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7369/snorkelvalvewithpiping.jpg)

(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7377/zuluftleitung.jpg)

Found on:
http://traktoria.org/files/snorkel/ (http://traktoria.org/files/snorkel/)


Maybe you'll find them interesting.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Jan , 2011, 11:19
Thanks Maciek!! I had seen the snorkel valve pictures before but not the full set. The pictures of the snorkel on the Type VII must be a very very early design. Does anyone recognize what U-boat number this is?

(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/7655/new2tt.jpg)
Here a close-up of one of the pictures. The lower platform looks very strange! I do not even recognize which Turm it is. Dougie or anyone, does anyone recognize it?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 26 Jan , 2011, 14:43
Hi gents,

Great photos! Some of these photos are from "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" by E Roessler. They show U 235 in October 1943.

U 235 was very unusual in several respects. Firstly when it was commissioned in Dec 42 it had an original tower but with the late styl;e of deck (planked). A quite unusual combination!

By October 1943 it had a snorchel and a Turm II. This Turm II was a little different than normal - there has a curved edge to the tower that can be clearly seen in the last photo.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Jan , 2011, 20:33
Hi gents,

Great photos! Some of these photos are from "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" by E Roessler. They show U 235 in October 1943.

U 235 was very unusual in several respects. Firstly when it was commissioned in Dec 42 it had an original tower but with the late styl;e of deck (planked). A quite unusual combination!

By October 1943 it had a snorchel and a Turm II. This Turm II was a little different than normal - there has a curved edge to the tower that can be clearly seen in the last photo.

Cheers,

Dougie

Thanks Dougie. I had a good feeling that you would see this before.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Jan , 2011, 21:07
The drainage system for Torpedo Tubes

Hi Maciek & All.

I have adding the drainage piping similar to U-534. I also decide to keep the two 3-way valves the same on both sides till we know for sure of there locations. I redrawn the drainage pipe that run under the Torpedo Tubes, I added a incline so the lines would now self drain.

(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/5067/pipe4j.jpg)

(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8219/pipe3j.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 28 Jan , 2011, 00:57
nice pix, cool to see the detail bits1
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 28 Jan , 2011, 02:12
Hi Simon

Maciek, I found it!!! ;D ;D I will post pictures soon.

Here are my research results:

I think that HP Line for HP Bank No 4 (port air flasks) is as follow:

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6784/hpbank4b.jpg)

(I marked the filter and valve d

(http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1398/hpbank4a.jpg)

and then goes

(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4729/hpbank4c.jpg)

and just before frame 69 goes to the deck.

(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8559/hpbank4d.jpg)

somewhere here:

(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9733/hpbank4e.jpg)


--
Regards
Maciek

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 28 Jan , 2011, 02:29
Next, I guess that HP Line for HP Bank No 5 (starboard air flasks) is as follow:

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9662/hpbank5a.jpg)

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7808/hpbank5b.jpg)

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2810/hpbank5c.jpg)

Unlike at port side, the line goes to the deck jest near the bulkhead.
And there is valve d missing.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 28 Jan , 2011, 03:24
I think that hull valve a1 for HP Bank 6 is located here:

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6426/hpbank6a.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6426/hpbank6a.jpg/)

Then the lines go at both sides:

starboard:

(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7672/hpbank6b.jpg)

and then to the Control Room, through the valve d

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7681/hpbank6c.jpg)

port:

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7449/hpbank6d.jpg)
(view from the stern)

(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5938/hpbank6e.jpg)
(view from the bow)

The port line goes through the valve c2 to the mine ejection installation.

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/962/hpbank6f.jpg)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 28 Jan , 2011, 07:04
Low pressure air line for blowing torpedo tubes/torpedo compensating tanks:

(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/664/lpag.jpg)

On the photo below I marked connectio to the line from the Control Room (also marked on previous photo)
and connection to the starboard side, which is led near the frame.

(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5921/lpbt.jpg)

And below - connection from port side

(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8532/lpcx.jpg) (http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8532/lpcx.jpg)

Unfortunately I do not have enough detailed photos of torpedo room aft bulkhead port side, so I can not figure
if there is a branch for pneumatic tools connection or branch line for blowing bow buoyancy tank.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 28 Jan , 2011, 08:31
Pressure equalization line

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9397/pressureeq1.jpg)

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6943/pressureeq2.jpg)

Another view of the junction:

(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3584/pressureeq.jpg)

Line connection with valve of the tube II (port, top) and junction:

(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9253/p1100448.jpg)

Line connection with valve of tube III (stb, bottom):

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3218/p1100415.jpg)


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Jan , 2011, 12:36
Hi Maciek

Wonderful research! You have moved it forward.

High Pressure Air Bank 6

I think you are correct about this system. Hull valve a1 is located at the correct internal frame number compare to the high pressure bottle located outside the pressure hull. In addition, what little we can see of this valve, it does certainly look like a pressure hull valve.

Were you able to locate the pressure gage before valve c2?

I will update my drawing today ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Jan , 2011, 13:11
Hi Maciek

You have moved is forward also

High Pressure Air Bank 4 & 5.

I believe you are correct about this system also. After posting my results the other day on the high pressure lines, I found an original German plan that illustrating the alignment of the high pressure air bottles of bank 4 & 5. As soon as I saw this plan, I knew that something was worry in my initial research :-[ :-[. It’s good that you also found this error in my research, as any research is only as good was it peer review.

One thing I can not understand is, why move all the air lines for bank 4 & 5  to the Port of the boat, when the high pressure air manifold is on the starboard side of the boat ??? :-\       

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Jan , 2011, 17:22
Low pressure air line

I had been rechecking the piping for the low pressure air line. That do you think about this:

Pneumatic tools connection
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2618/pipe5.jpg)

Red Arrow = Pressure gage (missing).
Blue Arrow = Connection points.
Yellow Arrow = Valve c.

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/952/pipe6.jpg)
I think they may have updated the low pressure system for the Type VIIC/41. Here a suggestion for the new low pressure air line.

Red arrow = Flow of low pressure air.
Blue arrow = New master valve.
Yellow arrow = Low pressure line to tube II & IV (Port Side), control by new valve (pink arrow).
Green arrow =  Low pressure line to tube I & III (starboard side), control by new valve (megente arrow).
Black arrow = Pressure hull valve for forward buoyancy tank.

What do you think ??? :-\
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 28 Jan , 2011, 22:40
I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on anything but the tool connection - it's similar in Gatos, so I can sort of recognise that!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Jan , 2011, 13:32
Hi gents,

Great photos! Some of these photos are from "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" by E Roessler. They show U 235 in October 1943.

U 235 was very unusual in several respects. Firstly when it was commissioned in Dec 42 it had an original tower but with the late styl;e of deck (planked). A quite unusual combination!

By October 1943 it had a snorchel and a Turm II. This Turm II was a little different than normal - there has a curved edge to the tower that can be clearly seen in the last photo.

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

I was thinking about U-234, perhaps she was unusual because she was a training and school U-boat, and they keep she update with each new equipment to train the sailor on :-\

She was also unusual at her dead! So near the end of the war (14 April 1945), she was sunk in error by a depth charges from the German torpedo boat (all hands lost) :(  I wonder if this was the only U-boat the Kriegsmarine sunk.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Jan , 2011, 13:36
I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on anything but the tool connection - it's similar in Gatos, so I can sort of recognise that!

I am not knowledgeable enough either. I am still learning!! :)

That is one thing I like, that each day I learn something new :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Jan , 2011, 22:14
Impulse Tank/High pressure air bottle for torpedo tube

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/1508/typevii41view3d.jpg)
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1839/pipe7.jpg)
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2668/pipe8.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 30 Jan , 2011, 23:15
Hi Simon


Were you able to locate the pressure gage before valve c2?


Well, I think that it is located at top, port torpedo tube:

(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1194/p1100445u.jpg) (http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1194/p1100445u.jpg)

with the probe line leading from the valve as marked here:

(http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5259/probeline.jpg) (http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5259/probeline.jpg)

The similar arrangement here:

(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7776/p1100450j.jpg) (http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7776/p1100450j.jpg)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 30 Jan , 2011, 23:40
Low pressure air line

I had been rechecking the piping for the low pressure air line. That do you think about this:

Pneumatic tools connection
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2618/pipe5.jpg)

Red Arrow = Pressure gage (missing).
Blue Arrow = Connection points.
Yellow Arrow = Valve c.


I think that there are two possibilities:
1. Connection points you have marked with blue arrow are for pneumatic tools, and they are connected to line
visible near the frame, which is led from the port side and from the bulkhead.
2. Connection points are for torpedo testing and charging and are connected to the HP air system.

I can not find any photos clear enough to determine this.


(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/952/pipe6.jpg)

I think they may have updated the low pressure system for the Type VIIC/41. Here a suggestion for the new low pressure air line.

Red arrow = Flow of low pressure air.
Blue arrow = New master valve.
Yellow arrow = Low pressure line to tube II & IV (Port Side), control by new valve (pink arrow).
Green arrow =  Low pressure line to tube I & III (starboard side), control by new valve (megente arrow).
Black arrow = Pressure hull valve for forward buoyancy tank.


Well, I had thought initially, that valves you marked belongs to torpedo high pressure air manifold with:
Red and Green arrows - outputs respectively to the
charging air impulse tanks and torpedoes and to the air motor for anchor capstan.
Yellow arrow with opposite direction would be input from Control Room,
and that one marked as inflow would be drain to the bilge.

The valves for controling low pressure air lines would be gathered at the port side of bulkhead...

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 30 Jan , 2011, 23:57
I have tried to back trace the connection to torpedo HP air manifold by locating connections
for charging torpedo impulse tanks:

(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1408/chargingstb.jpg) (http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1408/chargingstb.jpg)

(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6238/chargingport.jpg) (http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6238/chargingport.jpg)

green arrows - valves c1
black arrrow - frame No 75
red arrows - HP charging lines

The lines are connected by the bridge line which is led near the frame No 75.
But I cannot determine, how where the joints are located exactly, and how it goes
backward to the bulkhead.


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Jan , 2011, 01:40
Hi Simon


Were you able to locate the pressure gage before valve c2?


Well, I think that it is located at top, port torpedo tube:

(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1194/p1100445u.jpg) (http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1194/p1100445u.jpg)

with the probe line leading from the valve as marked here:

(http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5259/probeline.jpg) (http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5259/probeline.jpg)

The similar arrangement here:

(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7776/p1100450j.jpg) (http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7776/p1100450j.jpg)

--
Regards
Maciek
Hi Maciek

I am not sure if we are talking about the same pressure gage, as I was thinking there was only one pressure gage to measurement the pressure in Bank 6 (being located before it spit to port and starboard)?

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7719/new3p.jpg)
Plate 11:  High pressure air system

(http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/7530/new5l.jpg)
Plate 25:  Torpedo tube firing, venting, flooding and drainage systems
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 31 Jan , 2011, 01:44
Hi Simon


I am not sure if we are talking about the same pressure gage, as I was thinking there was only one pressure gage to measurement the pressure in Bank 6 (being located before it spit to port and starboard)?


Yes, we talk about the same :-)
The last picture is an example of arrangement - thick, probe line connecting valve with gauge.
It was not related with the one, you asked for.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Jan , 2011, 03:03
While drawing the Impulse Tanks, I notice two small outlets near the top of the bottle. The left outlet look like a line to a pressure gage :-\ and the right look like a safely valve :-\ You can see both in P1100414.JPG. Do you know anything about them ???


Thanks for the answer below :)


Still looking through all the new data you posted today, but several things do make more sense about the high pressure system on the starboard side. It would be very
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 31 Jan , 2011, 04:18
Hi Simon

I must say there so much new data and things, that I am starting to lose track on all the piping ;D I will need to read all our posts again to fully understand it before I start adding each subsystem to my drawing.

Well, I'm sure that you can easly figure out all that mess - after you managed out to draw Diesel Engine Room you are
one of the most qualified and experienced person to do that task.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 31 Jan , 2011, 04:50
Finally I have found a mysterious piece of installation:

(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6667/p1100452.jpg) (http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6667/p1100452.jpg)

(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5286/p1100450p.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5286/p1100450p.jpg)

(http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/phocagallery/okrety/u995/u995_2k5_54.jpg) (http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/images/phocagallery/okrety/u995/u995_2k5_54.jpg)

On the first image I have marked with:
red arrow - valve, which seems like either valve without second/output line or hull valve.
green arrow - part, which looks like pressure regulator
blue arrow - valve - maybe to set desired pressure on regulator

I was also not able to trace the pipe, which is going downward to the blue valve.

On photos there are visible one pressure gauge and one probe line and place, where second pressure gauge was mounted.
The existing pressure gauge is scaled up to 25 at, so it seems like it is located at low pressure side.
Was the missing pressure gauge located at high pressure side?

The most probably function of this installation would be pressure reduction on line, which is connected to air
motor for anchor capstan.

The other possibility is that it is late-war or even post-war modification. I have found this picture of Forward Torpedo
Room of type VIIC boat and compared it with the view of U-995.

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7312/viicbugraum.jpg)

(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8477/u995bugraum.jpg)

The photo is not clear and detailed but I can not see these valves.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Jan , 2011, 22:43
On this day, 3 years ago I started my drawing ;D and I still have 3-4 years to go.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 01 Feb , 2011, 02:02
Hello

One interesting thing I have noticed lately.

As we know, on type VII U-Boats, the anchor capstan was driven by the compressed-air propelled motor,
which was located in the Forward Torpedo Room, in the bilge, between the torpedo tubes.

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Photo11.jpg) (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Photo11.htm)
(source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)

On the photo of Forward Torpedo Room on U-570, there are visible one driving shaft connecting motor with driving gear,
and one shaft, which connected the upper deck with control valve, located in the bilge, near the motor.

Till now, I have always thought, that on the U-995 was similar - they only removed the shafts, to make visiting easier.
On the following photo, I marked the part, which I thought was a drive gear.

(http://piczasso.com/i/hna4j.JPG) (http://piczasso.com/i/hna4j.JPG)
(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml)

But during my researches, I think, that someone - either German, or Norwegians, moved the motor up to the ceiling -
and made it similar as on type IX boats.

(http://piczasso.com/i/q5916.jpg) (http://piczasso.com/i/q5916.jpg)
Forward Torpedo Room of U-190 (source: "Vom Original zum Modell: Uboottyp IX C")

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-505EnclG521.jpg) (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-505Photographs.htm)
Forward Torpedo Room of U-505 (source: http://www.uboatarchive.net)


This modification required the change in HP air lines - that's what I have noticed:

On the following picture, I have marked the input line and regulating valve.

(http://piczasso.com/i/7ynpy.jpg) (http://piczasso.com/i/7ynpy.jpg)

Here I've marked line connecting regulating valve and air motor.

(http://piczasso.com/i/4lmvo.jpg) (http://piczasso.com/i/4lmvo.jpg)

Another view:

(http://piczasso.com/i/h5wbp.JPG) (http://piczasso.com/i/h5wbp.JPG)



May the motor was moved by Germans, to make the easier access to the LUT setting device?


--
Regards
Maciek



Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Feb , 2011, 14:56
Hi Maciek

I had a look at U-995 Das U-Boot vor dem Marine Ehrenmal in Laboe By Wetzel, Eckard, and found one poor detail picture of the forward torpedo room on page 38. In the picture you can just make out the driving shaft and control arm, the picture is take sometime between 1943 and 1945. I then found a better picture of the forward torpedo room on page 151 taken sometime between 1965 and 1971, and you can see the motor has been moved up to the ceiling.

This may suggest that the Norwegians move the motor :-\

The Norwegians did a similar thing with the periscope on U-995 they replacing the old periscope with a new Type XXIII periscope.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Feb , 2011, 23:25
Need a break from torpedoes today ;D

Late war DF antenna-loop
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1508/typevii41view3d.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 02 Feb , 2011, 22:05
Simon, your last post makes me think of two questions.

Approx when would the KM have started using that version of DF loop?  I'm wondering of course if I should try to make that for my model or leave it the round one it started as.

And the other one to do with torpedoes is, how close would the nose of a torpedo come to the inside of the torpedo door?  Or perhaps, how long is a torpedo and how long is the entire torpedo tube (assuming the torpedo is as far back in the tube as possible when ready to fire). 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Feb , 2011, 01:40
A update on the drawing, now includes the Saddle Tank Hatches

(http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/5895/new2c.th.jpg) (http://img814.imageshack.us/i/new2c.jpg/)

Key for Drawing
http://www.mediafire.com/?ign98y2vc981py8 (http://www.mediafire.com/?ign98y2vc981py8)



Hi Dougie

Check out the hatch!!!! :o :o from atlantikpirat

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4995/scan0034.jpg)
Full image http://atlantikpirat.proforums.org/viewtopic.php?p=2653 (http://atlantikpirat.proforums.org/viewtopic.php?p=2653)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Feb , 2011, 01:41
Simon, your last post makes me think of two questions.

Approx when would the KM have started using that version of DF loop?  I'm wondering of course if I should try to make that for my model or leave it the round one it started as.

And the other one to do with torpedoes is, how close would the nose of a torpedo come to the inside of the torpedo door?  Or perhaps, how long is a torpedo and how long is the entire torpedo tube (assuming the torpedo is as far back in the tube as possible when ready to fire). 


1.) I am not sure on this as I have not research this, but I have a picture of U-362 from late 1944 with the newer DF style. It look like almost (I may say all now) all the boats (Type VIIC & VIIC/41) that surrendered had one.

2.) Part 2 in the morning, time for bed.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 03 Feb , 2011, 03:42
Nice antenna!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 03 Feb , 2011, 13:08
Hi Simon,

Thanks, that really is a wonderful pic. Superb for lower hull weathering too.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Feb , 2011, 14:14
Simon, your last post makes me think of two questions.

Approx when would the KM have started using that version of DF loop?  I'm wondering of course if I should try to make that for my model or leave it the round one it started as.

And the other one to do with torpedoes is, how close would the nose of a torpedo come to the inside of the torpedo door?  Or perhaps, how long is a torpedo and how long is the entire torpedo tube (assuming the torpedo is as far back in the tube as possible when ready to fire). 

2.) There is very little room between the nose of a torpedo and the inside of the torpedo door, could be less than 50 mm. I am thinking around 30
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Feb , 2011, 17:29
Hi Maciek
Does this look like the correct layout for the piping for bank 6 (in red) ???

Thanks, Simon.

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8363/new1l.jpg)

I think that hull valve a1 for HP Bank 6 is located here:

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6426/hpbank6a.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6426/hpbank6a.jpg/)

Then the lines go at both sides:

starboard:

(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7672/hpbank6b.jpg)

and then to the Control Room, through the valve d

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7681/hpbank6c.jpg)

port:

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7449/hpbank6d.jpg)
(view from the stern)

(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5938/hpbank6e.jpg)
(view from the bow)

The port line goes through the valve c2 to the mine ejection installation.

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/962/hpbank6f.jpg)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Feb , 2011, 22:51
Simon, your last post makes me think of two questions.

Approx when would the KM have started using that version of DF loop?  I'm wondering of course if I should try to make that for my model or leave it the round one it started as.

And the other one to do with torpedoes is, how close would the nose of a torpedo come to the inside of the torpedo door?  Or perhaps, how long is a torpedo and how long is the entire torpedo tube (assuming the torpedo is as far back in the tube as possible when ready to fire). 

Hi Pat

Being looking today for pictures of the late war DF Loop. 

Found that U-1056 had one on 29 April 1944 or U-869 on 26 January 1944 - Not 100% on the dates

Boats with one, U-362, U-776, U-858, U-869, U-875, U-889, U-953, U-995, U-997, U-1023, U-1056, U-1165 & U-1305.

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2011, 13:20
Boats with one, U-362, U-776, U-858, U-869, U-875, U-889, U-953, U-995, U-997, U-1023, U-1056, U-1165 & U-1305.

Also U-826, U-1058, U-1109
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 06 Feb , 2011, 13:52
Very nice antenna Simon!  Accurate and well rendered as always.

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2011, 15:16
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7654/dfloopa.jpg)
Fig. 1. Early war Direction Finder Antenna Loops. The DF Loop on the right is a 'left behind' if the FuMB-26 Tunis was remove.

(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8852/dfloop.jpg)
Fig. 2. Update: Late war Direction Finder Antenna Loop
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Feb , 2011, 05:45
Hi Simon

Does this look like the correct layout for the piping for bank 6 (in red) ???

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8363/new1l.jpg)


Yes, the top view layout looks correct.
Still not 100% sure, how does it look in front view...


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Feb , 2011, 14:13
Thanks Maciek

(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7607/outpiping.th.jpg) (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/outpiping.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Piping for High Pressure Air Bank 6
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 08 Feb , 2011, 19:51

2.) There is very little room between the nose of a torpedo and the inside of the torpedo door, could be less than 50 mm. I am thinking around 30
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 09 Feb , 2011, 01:45
The Yanks kept their arming inside as an impeller, there was a bit of a slot under the nose. But same principle, and same basic magnetic pistol. Interetsing!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Feb , 2011, 22:46
I was able to print my U-boat drawing out today on my 10 years old colour print. The detail is fantastic ;D ;D, And that at 1:43 and on my old printer. I can not wait to print it out on the large format printer at 1200 dpi ;D ;D Since I have free wall space I will increase the scale of my drawing from 1:43 to 1:32. But will need to check if they can still print this new size. 

Below is the new printout in my office.
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3213/dsc03054z.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 12 Feb , 2011, 01:31
If your printer can't, I can at work - 840mm wide, and multi metres long. If you need it let me know and I'll see what the Chief says about a super low price.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Feb , 2011, 01:59
Hi Rokket

Thanks for the help :) :) There a place I been using in the city that can print wide format. I am trying to keep using the same printer, as I found that the colours are not all ways the same for every printer.

I just printer U-1308 at 1:32. It
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Feb , 2011, 23:30
(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/510/dsc03062bt.jpg)
Here me, with the 1:32 scale printout ;D Its does not look so big in the photograph, but within the room it huge (the poster is about 2200 x 800 mm). Maybe too big :-\

I can not decide if I should go for one big poster at 1:32 of the internal view on one wall only :-\
Or go smaller…
One posters at 1:43 scale, of the internal view on one wall, and on the other wall a 1:43 scale external view :-\

I was just thinking maybe…
The 1:32 scale of the internal view on one wall and on other wall the external views of each Type used during the war so a Type II, VII, IX, XXI & XXIII all at 1:72 scale.

Anyone have any suggestion, that may look good ???


(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3213/dsc03054z.jpg)
Here the 1:43 scale printout.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Feb , 2011, 04:35
Go big and spend the money to frame. In the end, you will have a masterpiece! (Your work is the masterpiece, the framing/display is just to show it off)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Feb , 2011, 01:55
I had the mock-up 1:32 scale poster up now for 24 hours and I am starting it like it :) It still looks big....but it looks good.  I had always intended to frame the poster. I being thinking a nice plan black frame.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 17 Feb , 2011, 00:14
Simon, it looks very good.  Like Wink, I have the ability to print high quality and large products.  Not sure how that could help you, but if you want, when you are finished with the project I can print several copies.

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Feb , 2011, 00:40
Hi Wink & Ernest

Before the start of the New Zealand winter I want to have finished the working drawing this will included having the under deck piping layout, deck layout (with hatches) the framing and ribbing, etc
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 18 Feb , 2011, 04:05
keep up the great work!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TRM on 22 Feb , 2011, 04:06
Hello Simon,

The news has been pouring in about the eathquake. I remember you saying you were North of Christchurch. I truely hope all is well for you as well as with your family and friends. Please know that our thoughts and prayers go out to all our friends in NZ. Take care.

Kindest Regards,

T
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 22 Feb , 2011, 08:22
Hi Simon,

I'd like to echo these sentiments. It is terrible news to hear about the NZ earthquake and our thoughts are with everyone out there.

Best regards,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: DB Andrus on 22 Feb , 2011, 09:18
Simon,

I pray that you and your family are safe and well.

Best Regards,

D.B.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Feb , 2011, 12:55
Hi All

Thanks for the kind words :) After nearly 24 hours finally got word that all the family is Ok and well. There is no or little phone lines, water, and power in Christchurch at this time, so getting news out is hard. As of this morning 65 dead, over 100’s people are still trap in building :'(

I think a few close calls within the family, my sister was in one of the biggest shopping central in Christchurch at the time EQ and she said that part of roof collapse on to them.

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Johann Vilthomsen on 22 Feb , 2011, 13:37
You have my full support and affection. I am glad to hear that you and your family are well.
My condolences for those killed in the earthquake.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TRM on 22 Feb , 2011, 15:07
Good news to hear you and your family are well.  We will continue to pray for all those who perished and most certainly for who are in harms way.

Respectfully ,

T
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 25 Feb , 2011, 16:58
Very pleased you and the family are well...there's not much you can do about or in an earthquake.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Feb , 2011, 20:10
The earthquake is not only affecting Christchurch but most of the South Island. I have to go down south of Christchurch to do a few days work and almost all the petrol centrals for 3 hours driving time out of Christchurch are out of fuel because people are panic buying. The same for bread and milk, lots of people are panic buying food etc... also. It is starting to calm down a bit now as people realizes there is no need to panic and stockpile fuel or food.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 25 Feb , 2011, 20:23
I hope you can get through the nastiness quickly and return to normal!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Feb , 2011, 22:44
I hope you can get through the nastiness quickly and return to normal!

That may take a while, they are saying that one third of the building in Christchurch's CBD are either destroyed or will have to be demolished :o :'(   
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 26 Feb , 2011, 04:27
That is devastating.  Keep us posted.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Feb , 2011, 14:31
Even, U-1308 has been affect by the Christchurch earthquake ;D Last week I had to take my big computer into Christchurch to get fix. I pickup my computer in the weekend and realize after getting home that the shop had forget to give my back my power cable (I have a special power cord for my big computer). I call them and ask for them to sent it back to me. But now it lose in the mailing system of Christchurch :D and there will be no mail system for about 8 days until they can get the system up and running again. So, there will have been a delay on U-1308, but it's given me time to do all the little job around home that I been putting off for the summer ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 27 Feb , 2011, 23:35
frustrating, but good you can make it useful and productive!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Mar , 2011, 17:15
Work has restarted again on U-1308, after the mailing system was restarted after the EQ in Chch. Today the dockworker installed the port side Type GGUB 720/8 Electric motor. As I have now decided to do U-1308 in 1:32 scale, I have decided to add a few cutaway views, as at this scale it will allow me to show some of the detail inside equipment. 

(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7194/emoter1.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Mar , 2011, 18:34
Here a couple of fact about the Chch EQ.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Mar , 2011, 20:44
Hi Maciek

How the research going on the piping? Now that I got my computer going again I am going to restart on my research on the piping.

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Mar , 2011, 00:13
Thanks, Pat. That sound great. Can you rememeber the name of the program? I would be kind to watch it if it comes to New Zealand.

If I remember correctly, it was a program called "The American Experience" and it was the Buffalo, New York, PBS (Public Broadcasting System), station WNED.  I'm sure they must have a website.

The American Experience is an ongoing series that takes some event in US history that might have some unknown or controversial details and every week goes into whatever is known about it.

Thanks Pat! Found it.
http://www.wgbh.org/articles/Killer-Subs-In-Pearl-Harbor-1399 (http://www.wgbh.org/articles/Killer-Subs-In-Pearl-Harbor-1399) Can not watch it in NZ :( but its also YouTube :)

Hi Pat

Just watch it on YouTube. Excellent program!! Thanks again.

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 06 Mar , 2011, 08:50
Hi Simon

How the research going on the piping? Now that I got my computer going again I am going to restart on my research on the piping.

Researches are momentary stalled - I'm afraid, that without any new materials or without visit in Laboe,
at this moment I can't figure out something new...

I hope, I will visit U-995 in May, and then many question will be answered. :)

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Mar , 2011, 20:12
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7625/emoter.jpg)
Top view of the port Type GGUB 720/8 Electric motor.

(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7194/emoter1.jpg)
Side view of the Type GGUB 720/8 Electric motor.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Mar , 2011, 20:17
Hi Simon

How the research going on the piping? Now that I got my computer going again I am going to restart on my research on the piping.

Researches are momentary stalled - I'm afraid, that without any new materials or without visit in Laboe,
at this moment I can't figure out something new...

I hope, I will visit U-995 in May, and then many question will be answered. :)

--
Regards
Maciek


Hi Maciek

Thanks for the update :) I will finish the basic piping and then wait till you return from Laboe, before drawing the harder parts ;D

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 09 Mar , 2011, 07:35
Hi Simon,

I just wanted to be the "nine hundred and one post"  ;D congrats Mate !!!

Cheers,
Laurent
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Mar , 2011, 21:51
Hi Dougie

While doing your research on the vent patterns, did you come across any dimensions for the twelve circular vents above the torpedo doors? From the better set of plans I have, I got a diameter of 120 mm for the vents.

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 12 Mar , 2011, 05:31
Hi Simon,

I didn't do too much research into the holes for the article but did spend time on this for the U-Brass set, which included a drill template for these holes.

I think 120mm is a wee bit too large. I can't say for sure because we just working from photos, sometimes with not great resolution, and often taken at angles against the vents. The latter is a pain as it distorts calculations.

When we did the U-Brass set we reckoned that the circular hole was around 75mm. This was worked out by comparing the width of the hole against the space between each hole. This worked out with a few photos at around a factor of 0.4 (or 2.5 doing it the other way).

For example if the space between holes was 180mm then the hole itself would be 72mm.

Its hard to come up with a definitive figure for the holes but I reckon 75mm looks right against photos, whereas 120mm is too big.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Mar , 2011, 10:08
Thanks Dougie for the information. I did not think about checking photographs. U-995 still has three original vents on the starboard side. I will see if I can calculate something from them and have a look at war photographs also

After looking at U-995, 120 mm does look a little big :-[

Simon


Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Mar , 2011, 12:04
Hi Dougie

Using several very good photographs of U-995 I calculated a mean diameter of 69.852 mm with a SD of ±1.997 mm ;D

So, I calculate the vents at: Diameter of 70 ±2 mm; With a drop of 25 mm per vent; With the first vent being 100 mm below the deck surface.

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 13 Mar , 2011, 07:24
Hi Simon,

Fantastic, if you get a figure so close by independent measurements then this is really good. I'll go with 70mm.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Mar , 2011, 18:09
Atlantic Bow - Update

While adding the twelve circular vents above the torpedo doors to U-1308, I noticed that they did not fix the Type VIIC/41 very well. So I have another look at the bow shape. I feel that I made a mistake in my original drawing :(

http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg5634;topicseen#msg5634 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg5634;topicseen#msg5634)

I believe now the alteration for the Atlantic Bow only affect the bow casting section, and does not affect the deck to № 91 like in my original drawing. If the alteration is only affecting the bow casting section, is makes sense as they would not need to modify any other part of the boat.

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1876/bowvi.jpg)
The pink outline is the Type VIIC and the green outline is the Atlantic Bow.

(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5407/bow2v.jpg)
Above you can see the bow casting section. Is this the section they would had alternated for the Atlantic Bow (Source: Westwood).

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7305/u1023rddition.jpg)
Above you can see the outline of the Atlantic Bow (Source: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149950&page=21 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149950&page=21))
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Mar , 2011, 18:34
You can really see it in that last pic, wow
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Mar , 2011, 21:49
You can also see the outline on U-995 and a few other war time pictures of the Atlantic Bow.

(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3725/bow3pw.jpg)
(Source: http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml))
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Mar , 2011, 22:13
U-1308 new bow section

(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9859/bow4k.jpg)

(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5531/bow5.th.jpg) (http://img703.imageshack.us/i/bow5.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 16 Mar , 2011, 00:44
as always, looking great
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Mar , 2011, 20:04
Free-Flooding Vent Patterns for U-1105, U-1106, U-1107, U-1304, U-1306 and U-1308 (or Type VIIC/41's with the Alberich coating).

Below are the likely Free-Flooding vent patterns for the U-boats above. The vent patterns are base on photographs of U-1105. In the images below, they display the standard Free-Flooding vent patterns for a Type VIIC/4 (in white) and the new layout for boats with the Alberich coating. They made the vents bigger, and had fewer of them. 

Free-Flooding Vent patterns for the stern
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/289/vent3.th.jpg) (http://img62.imageshack.us/i/vent3.jpg/)

Free-Flooding Vent patterns for the central drainage area
(http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/459/vent2.th.jpg) (http://img851.imageshack.us/i/vent2.jpg/)

Free-Flooding Vent patterns for the bow
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3038/vent1q.th.jpg) (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/vent1q.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Mar , 2011, 23:58
Boats with one, U-362, U-776, U-858, U-869, U-875, U-889, U-953, U-995, U-997, U-1023, U-1056, U-1165 & U-1305.

Also U-826, U-1058, U-1109

Also U-1202.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Mar , 2011, 15:06
Update for the Free-Flooding Vent patterns for the stern.

Made a few changes to the vents base on better photographs of U-1105.

(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3471/vent4k.th.jpg) (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/vent4k.jpg/)
Fig. 1. Top layer is the vent patterns for Type VIIC/41's with the Alberich coating/Lower layer is the vent patterns for Type VIIC/41's.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 31 Mar , 2011, 12:07
Hi Simon,

Good work on these vents. I've seen very few photos of Alberich boats, hence why I never put them in the vent article. I'm pleased you've been able to establish the patterns.

Any ideas what they did on Alberich boats for the lower vents - the ones behind the foreplanes and the other group near the props?

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Mar , 2011, 12:51
Any ideas what they did on Alberich boats for the lower vents - the ones behind the foreplanes and the other group near the props?

I have been thinking about the same thing. At this moment I am unsure as I have no pictures of these area :'( but I imagine they reduce the number of vents and made them larger.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Mar , 2011, 14:42
Dougie, here something I have just noticed on U-1105, the 5 man life raft containers under the lower wintergaten has been remove (at least the starboard one - can not see the port side of the boat).

They must have removed them to make the surface smoother so they could lay the tiles on the lower wintergaten.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Mar , 2011, 16:48
Update for the Free-Flooding Vent patterns

► Made a few changes to the vents base on the better photographs of U-1105. (Top - Type VIIC/41's with the Alberich coating/Lower layer is the vent patterns for Type VIIC/41's).

Stern Vents
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4342/ventstern.jpg)

Bow Vents
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9509/ventbow.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Apr , 2011, 16:33
Here a little bit of information on how the Germans fixed the steel plate to the casting of the U-boat, if people are keen to know.

While redrawing the correct bow for my Type VIIC/41 late month, I noted that my u-boat was short by about 60 mm (or a couple of millimetres at 1:32). I found my error in my base datum measurements. The ribbing should measure 500 mm but somehow my were approximately 5/1000 millimetres short  :o :o Over the 130 plus ribs is added up. I could have easy stretch the drawing to get the extra length I needed and no one would know (No one would have every noticed the drawing was 2 mm short anyway ;D). However, for me my drawing needs to be as near to 100% correct as I can get it, so I redrawn all 6000 plus rivets, all the ribbing and framing.

After nearly 40 hours of drawing, now all the ribbing frames etc... are correct to 1/1000  ;D ;D For the last 3 days I had been redrawing the keel. I noticed I had the incorrect number of rivets between the internal framing so I fix this also. While doing this I also notice several rows of double rivets. It looks like the Germans would rivets each steel plate to the internal framing. This made me think, as I never seen rows of double rivets on the casting. So I recheck the casting. It looks like on the casting the German used a different style to fix the steel plate. They would overlay the steel plate steel plate and then wield the plates together.

(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/9321/pic1d.jpg)
In this pictures you can see the rows double rivets on the keel.

(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/7217/pic2ns.jpg)
In this pictures you can see the single rows rivets on the keel (green) and the overlap of the steel plate and the weild (red).
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Apr , 2011, 15:58
Hi Simon,

Good work on these vents. I've seen very few photos of Alberich boats, hence why I never put them in the vent article. I'm pleased you've been able to establish the patterns.

Any ideas what they did on Alberich boats for the lower vents - the ones behind the foreplanes and the other group near the props?

Cheers,

Dougie

Hi Dougie

Here is my best guess what they did with the diesel air inlet vents on the main bridge casting. On one of the U-1105 photographs, there is a smaller, compacter, darker shape in the area of diesel air inlet vents. This could be evidence of a single larger oval vent this would furthermore match what they did with the free flooding vents of to reduce the number of vents and making them larger.

Simon

(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2153/airinletvent1.jpg)
Fig. 1. The standard diesel air inlet vents on the main bridge casting for Type VIIC/41’s.

(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3746/airinletvent2.jpg)
Fig. 2. The possible shape and size of the diesel air inlet vents on the main bridge casting for Type VIIC/41’s with the Alberich coating.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 17 Apr , 2011, 02:28
This is where the Main Induction is on USN subs (the main air inlet for engines and everything), it was about 1 metre in dia under the casing. Assuming something similar here?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 17 Apr , 2011, 12:37
Hi Simon,

I'm sure you're right about this vent - makes good sense. I've never seen a below the waterline photo of an Alberich boat, which would be good to see.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Apr , 2011, 18:33
Hi Simon,

I'm sure you're right about this vent - makes good sense. I've never seen a below the waterline photo of an Alberich boat, which would be good to see.

Cheers,

Dougie

I have four photographs of U-1105 with the Alberich coating on. One of photographs is of U-1105 in dry-dock (Seen in Revell Type VIIC/41 (Scale 1:72) - Instructions Sheets). The photograph is very useful, nevertheless, being a B&W photograph and having black tiles, most of small details is loss in the photograph. However, I am just thankful that we got some photographs to work from, as so many boats don
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Apr , 2011, 23:22
Does anyone have a picture or know that the Forward Towing Hook look likes, on the Type VIIB/C's?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: reaper7 on 25 Apr , 2011, 05:59
Hi NZSnowman, just been going thru this thread and your doing amazing work.
Noticed all the Mediafire links are invalid (Invalid or Deleted File)  :-[ any chance of re-uploading them  ;D

Cheers Mate.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Apr , 2011, 17:44
Hi NZSnowman, just been going thru this thread and your doing amazing work.
Noticed all the Mediafire links are invalid (Invalid or Deleted File)  :-[ any chance of re-uploading them  ;D

Cheers Mate.

Hi reaper7

Thanks for the kind words.

I only used Mediafire when I start this thread, now I upload all the images to Imageshack. I have deleted some of the older files from Mediafire, but to just check you are see the Imageshack images but can not see the Mediafire images?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Apr , 2011, 16:29
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7654/dfloopa.jpg)
Fig. 1. Early war Direction Finder Antenna Loops. The DF Loop on the right is a 'left behind' if the FuMB-26 Tunis was remove.

(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8852/dfloop.jpg)
Fig. 2. Update: Late war Direction Finder Antenna Loop

While reworking the bridge of U-1308 this morning, I noticed a very small error in the drawing of the late war design of the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. The change are base on war time photographs of U-249.

(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1833/uboat13088b.png)
Fig. 1. Made several small changes to the late war design of the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. Changes are base on war time photographs.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Apr , 2011, 15:50
I am trying to position the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. There seen to bit a of variations (I think :-\). I am after any pictures of this area of the boat with the bridge shelf and the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. In the picture below of U-249, it looks like the Direction Finder Antenna Loop cut into the bridge shelf, which I thought was usually because there enough room to add it so it does not cut into the bridge shelf.

(http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/2690/new2o.jpg)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-249PhotosPortland.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-249PhotosPortland.htm)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Apr , 2011, 23:11
The crew of U-1308 are very happy today as they just acquire there shining new FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U radar. They are eager to try it out as soon as possible :)

(http://a.imageshack.us/img638/7633/fumo61.jpg)

While reworking the bridge of U-1308 today, I noticed the plans of the FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U do not match the war time photographs, so I rework the drawing to match the photographs. The drawing is now base on U-3037, U-3045 & U-3008.

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7633/fumo61.jpg)
Fig. 1. The FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U without the netting.

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6039/new3d.jpg)
Fig. 2. The FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U within its radar aerial housing.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 06 May , 2011, 19:55
Wow! Looks very 3D!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 May , 2011, 12:30
I am trying to position the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. There seen to bit a of variations (I think :-\). I am after any pictures of this area of the boat with the bridge shelf and the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. In the picture below of U-249, it looks like the Direction Finder Antenna Loop cut into the bridge shelf, which I thought was usually because there enough room to add it so it does not cut into the bridge shelf.

(http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/2690/new2o.jpg)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-249PhotosPortland.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-249PhotosPortland.htm)

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/626/typevii4132a.jpg)

Here my best estimate of the position of the bridge shelf and the Direction Finder Antenna Loop. What do people think?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 21 May , 2011, 22:22
that looks like it, I agree on angle, etc.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: wildspear on 21 May , 2011, 22:34
Looks pretty good, I'm in no way an expert in the u-boats but it does look good the me.....thats my 2 coppers.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 May , 2011, 22:50
Is the UZO mounting tower position slightly off the centreline of the U-boat to Port ??? I have always believe it was position on the centreline of the U-boat, but I have two war time photographs of U-586 & U-765 and the pictures clearly show the UZO mounting tower slightly position off the centreline.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 May , 2011, 23:07
Hi Dougie or anyone.

On Turm IV, we know that the upper and lower wintergarten deck was wood, was the bridge deck, wood or steel ???

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 25 May , 2011, 06:18
Hmmm...it's possible off ctr, because there could be other equip to make room for, and a few centimeters wouldn't make much difference, and yet, it would make so much sense to be dead ctr...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 May , 2011, 12:56
Hmmm...it's possible off ctr, because there could be other equip to make room for, and a few centimeters wouldn't make much difference, and yet, it would make so much sense to be dead ctr...

After posting yesterday I was looking at more pictures of the UZO's and I could have a reason why they had it off central, because of the sky periscope :-\

Maybe that why they keep missing with the torpedoes at the start of the war, the engineers forgot to say to the boats captains that the UZO was off centre  ;D ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 May , 2011, 16:25
Atlantic Bow - Update

While adding the twelve circular vents above the torpedo doors to U-1308, I noticed that they did not fix the Type VIIC/41 very well. So I have another look at the bow shape. I feel that I made a mistake in my original drawing :(

http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg5634;topicseen#msg5634 (http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg5634;topicseen#msg5634)

I believe now the alteration for the Atlantic Bow only affect the bow casting section, and does not affect the deck to № 91 like in my original drawing. If the alteration is only affecting the bow casting section, is makes sense as they would not need to modify any other part of the boat.

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1876/bowvi.jpg)
The pink outline is the Type VIIC and the green outline is the Atlantic Bow.

(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5407/bow2v.jpg)
Above you can see the bow casting section. Is this the section they would had alternated for the Atlantic Bow (Source: Westwood).

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7305/u1023rddition.jpg)
Above you can see the outline of the Atlantic Bow (Source: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149950&page=21 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149950&page=21))

Here a major rework of my Type VIIC/41 bow. I would also like to thanks everyone who helped me, with answers to my questions, getting me feedback and giving me pictures :) :)

(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/457/typeviic41bow.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/typeviic41bow.jpg/)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Marko on 27 May , 2011, 12:46
my goodness!!

that is some serious attention to details :o
was that internal ribbing identical to early VII/C? :)

Marko
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 May , 2011, 16:19
my goodness!!

that is some serious attention to details :o
was that internal ribbing identical to early VII/C? :)

Marko

Marko, the internal ribbing is the same for all Type VIIC's. In the drawing I have been able to match the correct space and placements of the rivets, base on the original rivets on U-995. In addition I have the correct space between the ribbing, almost all the space are at 500 mm however, there are several areas on the boat where this spacing changes.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 27 May , 2011, 23:31
NZ - still beautiful!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 28 May , 2011, 06:58
Hi Simon,

Been away for a few days so just catching up on things. I presume the bridge deck on the VIIC/41s was wood, just like the earlier boats.

Good work on the Atlantic bow!

I don't know much about Type IXs but I think some or all of the UZOs on the IXs were offset by a good distance to port. If I recall correctly, on the Revell kit the UZO was placed slightly to the port. There was much discussion about this when Revell first released the kit. The consensus at the time was that Revell got this wrong on their model.

But I've seen a post war photo of U 995 in which the UZO does look very slightly offset to port in relation to the persicopes. I would have thought they would have wanted to keep the UZO central, given its function in aiming torpedoes? Could you email the U 586 and U 765 photos? They would be interesting to see.

I'm convinced that the earliest VIICs had the UZO in the centre. Photos of the tower of the VIIB U 86 are excellent as they permit clear views from the rear of the UZO and both periscopes. And the well known VIIB schematic has the UZO in the centre. Other boats like U 552 and U 564 it looks in the centre.

However, there is a VIID schematic where the UZO is to the port side...

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 May , 2011, 08:03
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7997/u756photobh1.jpg)
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3681/graphic1nd.jpg)

Dougie you got PM
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 May , 2011, 08:11
I just checked the Fritz K
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 29 May , 2011, 04:42
Hi Simon,

Thanks for the images :) There is no doubt with that U 765 image, it is all the proof one needs for the UZO being port of centre on this boat. Note unusual features - the three movable windscreens and extended handrails near the top of the bulwark.

With the Koehl and Niestle plans, and the U 995 image, both being to port, then you have your answer for drawing your VIIC/41.

The VIIBs were dead centre and boats like U 552 and U 564 (I think) like they were centre too. I wonder when the change was made to port?

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Jun , 2011, 21:08
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5690/sh5r.jpg)

A 1
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Marko on 04 Jun , 2011, 12:55
my gosh :D

i once tried to play SH3, and i got lost on my 19" laptop in all those functions, so im afraid to think what would happen to me on this monster set up:D

however, for drawing, this must be a heaven for you, i know that at my work i have 2x23 LEDs, and sometimes is still too small workspace ::)

regards
Marko
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Jun , 2011, 16:12
For the third seasons the large iron gates of the shipyard are locked for the winter and the boatyard is closed. Again the dockworkers look back over the work for the last six months on U-1308. They finish the ribbing, framing, pressure hull and casting of U-1308. They install the Direction Finder Antenna Loop, the FuMO-61 Hohentwiel U radar, the FuMB-9 Wanze and FuMB-35 Athos. They also nearly finish the piping under the decking, and putting in the torpedo tubes.

Again thanks everyone for your help, for the photographs and information with my drawing. I will still found a little bit of free time to check the boards over the next few months.

Wish you all the best for your summer or winter.
Happy modelling, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 08 Jun , 2011, 04:16
good luck and we wait for the shipyard reopening!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pat on 28 Jun , 2011, 13:44
Hi Dougie or anyone.

On Turm IV, we know that the upper and lower wintergarten deck was wood, was the bridge deck, wood or steel ???

Thanks, Simon.

On the Revell VII C/41, it's the turm IV and the bridge deck is most definitely depicted to be wood.  If you look closely you can see where the beams cross underneath the wood, which would of course been no more than a scaffolding on top of the actual CT of the PH.

It makes sense that the bridge deck would have been wood for the same reasons that they made the sea decks and wintergarten decks wood - it's MUCH less likely to be slippery when wet and it would be less apt to build up ice on northern patrols too.  Anybody who's ever been on the ocean REALLY appreciates wood decks, they're so much better than metal (or fibreglass) that even battleships had wood decks and the most traveled parts of destroyer decks were wood too.  Harder to build than steel, but better.

A lesser reason might be that a wood deck wasn't as heavy as a steel deck and so the U-boat wouldn't roll as much on the surface, and a lesser reason during wartime is that it would save on metal, but I doubt if that would make much difference over the amount of metal on a whole boat.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Jul , 2011, 21:22
I was wondering if anyone has any war time pictures of the electric motors on the Type VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 09 Jul , 2011, 17:58
could be a tall order!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Jul , 2011, 15:27
Below are two photographs of U-352, from National Geographic. In the top image you can see several large pipes in the saddle tank and outside the pressure hull. Dougie, Maciek or anyone, does anyone have any idea that the pipes are for?

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7479/new6g.jpg)
Fig. 1. A close-up view of the saddle tank, where you can see several large pipes.


(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5030/new8p.jpg)
Fig. 2. A overview of the saddle tank and conning tower casting.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 02 Aug , 2011, 03:05
Hi Simon

Great find!

Dougie, Maciek or anyone, does anyone have any idea that the pipes are for?

(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7479/new6g.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/new6g.jpg/)

With letters A and B I have marked the driving gears for flood valves of the the Main Ballast and Reserve Fuel Oil Tank 4 port
The operating shafts are going through the pressure hull to the control room and are located here:
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9472/img6519rz.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/img6519rz.jpg/)

(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5532/img6697fr.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/img6697fr.jpg/)


Similar at the stb side:
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6158/img1881l.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/img1881l.jpg/)

General arrangements:
(http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2159/u570dtplate28.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/u570dtplate28.jpg/)

(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate28.htm (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate28.htm))




--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 02 Aug , 2011, 03:15
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7479/new6g.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/new6g.jpg/)

The thick pipe marked with letter C I believe is a sounding pipe as marjked here:

(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5879/u570dtplate8a.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/u570dtplate8a.jpg/)

(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate8A.htm (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate8A.htm))

The thinner pipe marked with letter D is hard to figure out.
I think it can be water compensating line:

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate10.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10T.jpg (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10T.jpg)

But according to the "FUEL OIL STOWAGE AND EQUIPMENT" chapter in the type IXC study (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm)):
Quote
The compensating lines to the individual fuel ballast tanks run directly to the bottom of the tank while the line for the outboard normal fuel tanks leads into the small salt water niche (1.5% of fuel tank's volume) in the bottom of the tank; a line then leads from the top of the niche to the bottom of the fuel tank.

it looks as it is located to high.

It can be also exhaust gas blowing line:

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate16.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm)

but it in the turn looks located to low.

--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Aug , 2011, 20:33
Thanks Maciek!!!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 12 Aug , 2011, 03:20
Hi Gentlemen


(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7479/new6g.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/new6g.jpg/)

With letters A and B I have marked the driving gears for flood valves of the the Main Ballast and Reserve Fuel Oil Tank 4 port

I have encountered interesting text related to the topic:

Quote
Es mu
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Aug , 2011, 18:55
wow, love to hear about stuff like that. I can imagine trying not to lose the bolts at sea, or slide off the curve of the tank and into the sea... I'm reminded of the scene in the 1940s story A Christmas Stury. Little Ralphie helps his dad change a tire, at night, in the snow.  They put the nuts in the upside-down hub cap, but Ralphie bumps it, and the nuts go flying. Ralphie screams "FU...DGE!" and the older-Ralphie narrating says..."only that's not what I said..." he gets his mouth washed out with soap when they get home. As hard as it was recovering nuts in snow (the story is loosely based on the author's real life in the 40s) I guess there would be no chance of recovering the bolts in the ocean!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: iceonaboy on 14 Aug , 2011, 02:12
Being a plant mechanic, I know exactly what he was going on about. That moment when you are spinning off a nut and it reaches the end of the thread earlier than you thought and in a second, its fallen away into the depths of an engine bay, or worse. :-[ Imagine if hed lost a bolt or nut. The whole subs integrity would have been comprimised. It might not be able to submerge because of leaks. Doesnt bear thinking about, the pressure on his shoulders.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 14 Aug , 2011, 06:25
Hi Gentlemen

You liked the previous story? You will love that one:

Quote
Eine weitere Begebenheit war mein Einstieg in die Tauchzelle 3. Bei welcher Fahrt es gewesen war, wei
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Aug , 2011, 20:07
 :o :o
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Aug , 2011, 21:04
Thanks everone for your help and pictures about the decking!

I was able to work out from all the pictures the hatches location etc... I was also able to find the pressure hull opening within U-995. So I had the start and end of the piping, I just have to best guess the bit in between. I place a bronze pipe end at the inlet. The piping on the left is for the fuel oil and the one on the right is for the Engine lubricating Oil.

I have not be able so far to workout the piping for the Steam heating system :( :(

(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4558/piping.jpg) (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/piping.jpg/)
Engine lubricating oil & fuel oil piping.

For the pressure hull openings for the fuel oil and the Engine lubricating Oil lines, I base it on the internal piping of U-995. Just today after looking at one of the pictures that SG posted I was able to confirm that I had corrected estimate there placements. You can clearly see the two pressure hull flanges.

(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/8049/fun0002.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 16 Aug , 2011, 02:25
Maciek - another great piece of personal history!


NZ - and another great drawing. It's wonderful to see the photos turned into accurate plans, and must feel good!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dbauer on 18 Aug , 2011, 14:20
Hey Buddy!
How about a nice set of line drawings for a Type IX C ????

Regards,
Dan
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 20 Aug , 2011, 03:15
Excellent NZ, Excellent!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Aug , 2011, 13:01
Hey Buddy!
How about a nice set of line drawings for a Type IX C ????

Regards,
Dan

I would like to do a set of drawings for the Type IX's after I finish the Type VIIC/41 :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dbauer on 21 Aug , 2011, 07:58
Hey Buddy!
How about a nice set of line drawings for a Type IX C ????

Regards,
Dan

I would like to do a set of drawings for the Type IX's after I finish the Type VIIC/41 :)

Hi Snowman!
That would be great! I am starting to do research for a full hull 1/72 Type IXC U-505.
Regards,
Dan
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Aug , 2011, 14:49
Air Inlet Mast - UPDATE

While researching the Air Inlet Trucking Line, I noticed almost all models and drawing are incorrect. Most have believed that the trucking line come out at the bottom of the mast as in Fig. 2. However, as seen in the two wartime photographs below (Figs. 3 & 4) Fig. 1 is correct.

(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/3212/new1kam.jpg)
Fig. 1. The new piping layout for the Air Inlet.

(http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3850/new2n.jpg)
Fig. 2. The commonly drawn or modelled piping layout for the Air Inlet.

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7909/new3el.jpg)
Fig. 3. Source (Mark Krzysztalowicz - Encyclopedia okretow wojennych 47 - U-BOOT VII Vol 1).

(http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7633/new4m.jpg)
Fig. 4. Source (The U-boat: The Evolution and Technical History of German Submarines; Author: Eberhard Rossler).
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 01 Sep , 2011, 03:08
hmmmm, very nice bit of detail catching. Nice dwgs too!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Marcus Silva on 01 Sep , 2011, 07:27
Hello All

I would to introduce myself. I'm Simon Morris from New Zealand. For the last 10 months I have been drawing a 1:60 scale of a general VIIC/41. Durying this time a few quection pop up about the VIIC/41. I am hope that you guys can help my with a few  :)

Here is my first question.
I am looking for the other none water markings, I have seem to found mark II, III & V. I am looking for mark I & IV. I am thinking they are both on the port side of the boat, but i can not found them in the pictures i have of U-995. Does anyone found where they are?

Hull Marking (2 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ghtymnymh3n

Thanks, Simon

Here are a few of my drawing, they are all PDF

Conning Tower (6.5 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzyigmmljak (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzyigmmljak)
Engine Room (3.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?z2ry2n1dmtq
Motor Room (1.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?l2mgzjmzy2n
Me & Poster (0.7 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zmmzzjyzimo&thumb=6  ;D

Hi NZ, this post is quite a bit later but can you please if possible redownload the schematics, because it is now an INVALID FILE?
Thank you very much: Marcus Silva
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 06 Sep , 2011, 10:58
Hi Dougie

Great photos! Some of these photos are from "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" by E Roessler. They show U 235 in October 1943.

I wonder, if you could tell me something about content of above book?
Are there photos which can help in the investigating the technical aspects of
U-Boots construction? Now I'm especially interested in the photos presenting
the forward torpedo room.

--
Thanks, regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 08 Sep , 2011, 09:15
Hi Simon

I was wondering if anyone has any war time pictures of the electric motors on the Type VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dougie47 on 08 Sep , 2011, 14:22
Hi Maciek,

The book "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" is really good, providing excellent photos of boats on the slipways in various stages of construction. But it doesn't have internal photos so I don't think it will help you with forward torpedo room.

The one book which does have internal VIIC photos is "U-Boat War" by Lothar Guenther Buchheim. This is full of photos he took on the famous U 96 patrol. It includes a few photos of the forward torpedo room.

Cheers,

Dougie
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 09 Sep , 2011, 02:49
Hi Dougie

The book "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften" is really good, providing excellent photos of boats on the slipways in various stages of construction. But it doesn't have internal photos so I don't think it will help you with forward torpedo room.

The one book which does have internal VIIC photos is "U-Boat War" by Lothar Guenther Buchheim. This is full of photos he took on the famous U 96 patrol. It includes a few photos of the forward torpedo room.

I have german edition of this book - "U-Boot-Krieg" - and it is really good.
Anyway, I'll try to get the book "Die deutschen U-boote und ihre Werften".

--
Thanks, regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Sep , 2011, 13:59
Hello All

I would to introduce myself. I'm Simon Morris from New Zealand. For the last 10 months I have been drawing a 1:60 scale of a general VIIC/41. Durying this time a few quection pop up about the VIIC/41. I am hope that you guys can help my with a few  :)

Here is my first question.
I am looking for the other none water markings, I have seem to found mark II, III & V. I am looking for mark I & IV. I am thinking they are both on the port side of the boat, but i can not found them in the pictures i have of U-995. Does anyone found where they are?

Hull Marking (2 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ghtymnymh3n

Thanks, Simon

Here are a few of my drawing, they are all PDF

Conning Tower (6.5 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzyigmmljak (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzyigmmljak)
Engine Room (3.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?z2ry2n1dmtq
Motor Room (1.3 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?l2mgzjmzy2n
Me & Poster (0.7 MB) http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zmmzzjyzimo&thumb=6  ;D

Hi NZ, this post is quite a bit later but can you please if possible redownload the schematics, because it is now an INVALID FILE?
Thank you very much: Marcus Silva

Hi Marcus

Which drawing are you after?

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Sep , 2011, 15:47
I was able to include a little bit more detail to my drawing today, thanks to Maciek. Ever little bit help.

(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8071/electricmotorserialplat.jpg)
Fig. 1 .  A close-up view of one of the three original electric motors serial plates found on the Electric motors.

(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3295/electricmotor.jpg)
Fig. 2 .  The Type GGUB 720/8 Electric motor for Type VIIC
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 11 Sep , 2011, 03:36
That looks awesome!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 11 Oct , 2011, 00:54
Awesome work as always my friend.

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Nov , 2011, 13:03
A small update today for the outlets valves for Diving Tank 3. I found this picture from http://www.u-boot-zentrale.de/eng/tower.htm (http://www.u-boot-zentrale.de/eng/tower.htm) with a wire net to protect against foreign bodies entering the tank.

(http://www.u-boot-zentrale.de/bilder/Entluft.jpg) (http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6598/new1gq.jpg)

Here two small updates for this post.

The vent in the picture (left) of U-249, I mislabel. It should read MB & RFO Tank 2 and 4, not MB Tank 3 :-[

So now for the drawing above the vents MB Tank 3 (left) & MB & RFO Tank 2 and 4 (right).

Another small update for this post, my original drawing (above) shows a wire net over MB Tank 3 (left), this vent shouldn't have a wire net over it.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: bracco_n on 02 Nov , 2011, 18:14
Excuse my ignorance but what are those valves for?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Nov , 2011, 18:40
The MB Tank 3 (picture left) lets the air out for the main driving tank so the U-boat are dive.
Check out this image (Click on the Surface and Submerge buttons to the action) http://express.howstuffworks.com/express-submarine1.htm (http://express.howstuffworks.com/express-submarine1.htm)

The MB & RFO Tank 2 and 4 (picture right) let the air out for the tanks 2 & 4 so the U-boat are dive and trim itself.

When model making the Type VII
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 03 Nov , 2011, 05:24
I am STILL waiting for the full size boat to be built from these... ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 03 Nov , 2011, 21:13
Exhaust Gas Blowing System

The exhaust gas blow system used exhaust gas from the main engines to assist with blowing the tanks to raise the U-boat. A pipe extending forward from the main engine exhaust valves, to led forward to a manifold located over the control room. From the manifold, smaller pipes runs to 8 tanks around the u-boat. The eight associated valves in the manifold were operable from within the control room.

(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5344/ge4a.jpg)
Fig. 1. A overview of the piping on the stern section of a Type VIIC with a schnorchel.

(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4856/ge1f.jpg)
Fig. 2. A overview of the piping around the tower, the manifold can be seen lower right.

(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7863/ge2m.jpg)
Fig. 3. Close-up view of the manifold and the 8 smaller pipes that led to the different tanks.

(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6986/ge3c.jpg)
Fig. 4. Close-up view of piping about the air inlet for the main engines.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Nov , 2011, 02:24
WOW! You are now an expert in all this piping. And really nice shading on the center pipe, as it goes from blocked/covered ti more opne. Very well done.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Nevermind4712 on 04 Nov , 2011, 10:48
I can say,..this Thread is a perfect Help for me and let me see a lot what i didnt know!:).

Really good Work!!!

(sorry about my english:\)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Nov , 2011, 23:57
That's what we're here for, Nevermind (and your English is fine). NZSnowman has done a brilliant job on these drawings - not just the dwgs themsleves, but translating photos to diagrams.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Nov , 2011, 17:15
Does anyone know if the German's keep the mounting for the forward deck gun (8.8cm) on the late war Type VIIC or on the Types VIIC'41? Or did they completely remove the whole mount under the deck?

Thanks, Simon. 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 11 Nov , 2011, 01:07
hmmm, don't know. My gut is the mount stayed an just the gun lifted off. That's pretty standard for most of the removable stuff.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Nov , 2011, 01:33
I think you are right, that they leave the mounting under the deck. As the German's would never know for sure if they would not reuse it late in the war, if things got better.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 11 Nov , 2011, 01:55
I have been able to take a very close look at U505 and can confirm that, for that uboot at least, the mounting plate for the 10.5 cm cannon is still there.

Ernest

I think you are right, that they leave the mounting under the deck. As the German's would never know for sure if they would not reuse it late in the war, if things got better.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 11 Nov , 2011, 10:49
Thanks Ernest, that is great news!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 12 Nov , 2011, 13:12
Simon,
some of the boats seem to have retained it and some not. Am talking about a picture in which there's a line of 3 VIIC/41 plus a type IX moored at Wilhelmshaven in may 1945 and 3 other pictures (one of which of (?)U-1165) published on that Kagero/AJ press book you definitely must decide to get! ;D. am going to send you all the pictures ASAP (2 days) so that you can examine them and come to a definitive conclusion (am talking of the ones on pages 129 and 162-4 of U-boot VII Vol.2 -I cant copy them electronically now, but if someone can send/post them sooner than i do it will be equally great-). In the beautiful artworks by W.Goralski (same book, pages 166-7) the uboot (incorrectly i suppose) sports a hatch instead of the gun mount..
Cheers
SG
  
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 13 Nov , 2011, 16:17
Ok there we go:
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/foto_1.jpg)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/foto_1-1-1.jpg)

the 3 VIIC/41s + close-up of the central boat's possible gun mounting plate
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/foto_5.jpg)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/foto_5-1-1.jpg)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/foto_3.jpg)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/foto_2.jpg)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/foto_4-1.jpg)
keep up the great work Simon!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 18 Nov , 2011, 16:48
looks great! crisp deck
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 19 Nov , 2011, 04:05
Hi Gentlemen, seems like the "individuality" of U-boots fooled me once again. I was wrong when i wrote that the artwork was incorrect (w many apologies to Mr Goralski :-[). A line of 3 VIIC/41 (U-1109, U1058 and U-901 From R to L) plus a late VIIC (U-278): U-1058 shows a hatch (?watertight container) located on the former gun mounting site. As always, there is no universal rule with U-boots, each boat had her own little modifications..
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/7C412.jpg)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/7C412-1-1.jpg)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m130/s-germani/Uboats/7C412-2.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Dec , 2011, 23:45
Update: Torpedo Room

(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/9831/tr0n.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/tr0n.jpg/)
Fig. 1. A overview of the Torpedo Room.

(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6568/tr1bc.jpg)
Fig. 2. Blukhead between the Head & the Torpedo Room.

(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2363/tr2j.jpg)
Fig. 3. The control arm for Opening/Closing of the Blow Buoyancy Tank.

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7383/tr3k.jpg)
Fig. 4. The control arm (in red) for Opening/Closing of the MB Tank 5; With the control arm (brown) for Opening/Closing of the Torpedo Door.

(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/6402/tr4er.jpg)
Fig. 5. Torpedo Tube.

(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7583/tr16s.jpg)
Fig. 6. High Pressure Air Bottles.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 04 Dec , 2011, 09:52
Mmmmm - more uboot drawing porn!   ;)  Beautiful work Simon!!

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Dec , 2011, 17:51
The crew of U-1308 are truly happy today as they got two new 3.7 cm Flakzwilling M43U for their LM42U twin mounted flak guns. (Very few U-boats got the twin mounted 37 mm flak guns - U-boat know to have them U-1108 & U-889).

There was some talk within the crew about getting the LM43U the quadruple mounted flak guns :o (As a side note, the German did make a quadruple mounted 37 mm flak guns, but it do not come up to expectations, so they swap out the 37 mm for 20 mm). The LM43U quadruple mounted flak guns would have been able to put up 200 round per minute, firing a 0.73 kg round over 15.3 km. That would have help keep the planes away ;D  

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8149/37mmflakm42.jpg)



(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3799/37mmflakm42b.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Dec , 2011, 23:56
I was wonder if anyone have any good pictures of the 3.7 cm mounted, on the U-boats?

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 07 Dec , 2011, 07:47
Hey Simon!
Check your personal message inbox here at AMPforum, I've sent you some pictures and artworks which might help..
keep up the stunning-classy work!
SG
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Pepper-mint on 14 Dec , 2011, 04:23
Simon,

This is your 1000 and ONE reply...

For the flakvierling plans, i'll check as soon as i'm back to Leb...

heers mate  ;)
Pepper
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 22 Dec , 2011, 01:34
The dockworkers and crew of U-1308, which like to wish anyone a Marry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 23 Dec , 2011, 03:28
Thanks mate! and you too! Hope the new Christchurch quakes haven't affected you.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Dec , 2011, 11:31
Thanks mate! and you too! Hope the new Christchurch quakes haven't affected you.

All this well! Yes, it has been a Rock & roll time for Christchurch within that last 24 hours.

5 large earthquakes within 2 hours. The first was 5.8 and hit at 1.58pm yesterday, followed by a 5.3 quake at 2.06pm. At 2.14pm there was a 4.2 magnitude one but the largest was 6.0 and struck at 3.18pm. It was followed by a 5.0 magnitude jolt at 3.50pm.

Since 4:00pm yesterday they have recorded 21 earthquakes between 3.2 and 5.1 magnitude.

Off to Christchurch today for Christmas with the family.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 23 Dec , 2011, 23:51
Wow. Good luck!

We had a tiny one in Adelaide a few months ago, in the middle of the night, wounded like a freight train or giant dumpster banging, house rumbled, shelves vibrated, woke us right up! Pretty scary, it just goes and you can't do anything!

Enjoy Christmas! (and have a nice break form your intense and awesome drawing!)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 24 Dec , 2011, 01:43
Simon, I wish you and your family a happy and safe christmas.  I do hope the quakes subside and let you enjoy the holidays in peace.

Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Dec , 2011, 00:09
The crew of U-1308 are truly happy today as they got two new 3.7 cm Flakzwilling M43U for their LM42U twin mounted flak guns. (Very few U-boats got the twin mounted 37 mm flak guns - U-boat know to have them U-1108 & U-889).

There was some talk within the crew about getting the LM43U the quadruple mounted flak guns :o (As a side note, the German did make a quadruple mounted 37 mm flak guns, but it do not come up to expectations, so they swap out the 37 mm for 20 mm). The LM43U quadruple mounted flak guns would have been able to put up 200 round per minute, firing a 0.73 kg round over 15.3 km. That would have help keep the planes away ;D  

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8149/37mmflakm42.jpg)

(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3799/37mmflakm42b.jpg)

Santa Claus is a few days late but that doesn
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 29 Dec , 2011, 02:33
another outstanding dwg!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 29 Dec , 2011, 18:44
That is an outstanding illustration! I work a lot with Illustrator, Painter and Photoshop, and I must say I nod greatly to your skills! Well done sir!
Christopher
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Dec , 2011, 19:15
That is an outstanding illustration! I work a lot with Illustrator, Painter and Photoshop, and I must say I nod greatly to your skills! Well done sir!
Christopher

Very kind words :)

Found this drawing very hard to do! It took me about 4 weeks for this drawing. Very few photographs of this twin mount and no plans :( Had to spend a lot of time looking at poor photographs to be able to add any level of detail.

Thinking about doing the Quadruple 2.0 cm Flak next ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 10 Jan , 2012, 20:48
The crew of U-1308 are very happy today as they just acquire there shining new FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U radar. They are eager to try it out as soon as possible :)

(http://a.imageshack.us/img638/7633/fumo61.jpg)

While reworking the bridge of U-1308 today, I noticed the plans of the FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U do not match the war time photographs, so I rework the drawing to match the photographs. The drawing is now base on U-3037, U-3045 & U-3008.

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7633/fumo61.jpg)
Fig. 1. The FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U without the netting.

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6039/new3d.jpg)
Fig. 2. The FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U within its radar aerial housing.

 Going back to this old post, with additional research I now think that my original drawing of the FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U was correct. I believe the second version of my drawing is the FuMO 65 Hohentwiel U1, nearly identical. So here my newest drawing of the FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U, base on the new research.


(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7633/fumo61.jpg)



 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 11 Jan , 2012, 00:38
Mmmmm....Weapon and Radar porn. :P   Very well done Simon, the drawings are beautiful.
 
Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Jan , 2012, 15:35
The FuMB Ant. 24 Fliege radar detection antenne.

(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9664/fumbantenne24fliege.png)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 12 Jan , 2012, 17:03
Very nice Drawing! Your control of gradients is outstanding sir!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Jan , 2012, 04:05
yes, I agree, gradients sell it and you know how to use them
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Jan , 2012, 21:56
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3518/fumo30.jpg)
Fig. 1. FuMO-30 Radar Transmitter.


(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7251/fumo30withfumb4.jpg)
Fig. 2. FuMO-30 radar transmitter with the FuMB Ant. 5 Samoa antenna for the FuMB-4 radar detection.


(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9521/fumo61hohentwielu.jpg)
Fig. 3. FuMO-61 Hohentwiel U Radar Transmitter.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 13 Jan , 2012, 23:26
more nice work - how close are you to "finishing"?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 13 Jan , 2012, 23:33
Likely he is working on a scale depiction of the Scapa Flow, and each vessel and building...  We know Gunther's boat at the time... But what clothing was each of the crew wearing? He is a busy man...  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 14 Jan , 2012, 04:41
and what was in their pockets?! how many pieces of lint?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Jan , 2012, 02:00
more nice work - how close are you to "finishing"?

To finish U-1308, I think 4-5 years  ;D

and what was in their pockets?! how many pieces of lint?

Likely he is working on a scale depiction of the Scapa Flow, and each vessel and building...  We know Gunther's boat at the time... But what clothing was each of the crew wearing? He is a busy man...  ;D

I said to myseft that I would not go any smaller that a Quark.  ;)

Mmmmm....Weapon and Radar porn. :P   Very well done Simon, the drawings are beautiful.
 
Ernest

Real hardcore U-boat porn! Undress, show all!!!  :o :o

(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7194/emoter1.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 15 Jan , 2012, 04:21
Quark, HAH!

Wow, that one is a beaut.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Jan , 2012, 11:12
Thanks mate! and you too! Hope the new Christchurch quakes haven't affected you.

All this well! Yes, it has been a Rock & roll time for Christchurch within that last 24 hours.

5 large earthquakes within 2 hours. The first was 5.8 and hit at 1.58pm yesterday, followed by a 5.3 quake at 2.06pm. At 2.14pm there was a 4.2 magnitude one but the largest was 6.0 and struck at 3.18pm. It was followed by a 5.0 magnitude jolt at 3.50pm.

Since 4:00pm yesterday they have recorded 21 earthquakes between 3.2 and 5.1 magnitude.

Off to Christchurch today for Christmas with the family.

Just a little side note on the Christchurch earthquakes, that I though some people may found interesting.
 
Since the first major shake in September over a year ago were has been 10,000 earthquakes and aftershocks. They had demolished 900 buildings in the central business district (CBD) and still have have 400 to be demolished. They have demolished 12 homes and were are 5000-6000 homes to be demolished.
 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 31 Jan , 2012, 00:47
WOW! That's a lot of destruction. Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Jan , 2012, 14:48
Four years ago on this day I started my initial U-boat drawing. It started out as U-218 at 1: 70 scale, and over this time it have grown into U-1308 at 1: 32 scale ;D Again I would like to thanks everyone in this forum who has helped me. There is in no way I could get the level of detail I wanted for U-1308 without your help!

You could say that a little part of everyone from this forum is in my drawing :) :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 31 Jan , 2012, 17:44
Your drawing is outstanding sir! Good Job!
Christopher
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 Feb , 2012, 17:25
 Sometime I wonder if I am adding too much detail and accurately. I have just added over 1,000 grid holes to the Conning Tower floor plate, with correct spacing and alignment  ;D ;D

(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/2971/new1em.jpg)
 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: wildspear on 02 Feb , 2012, 20:17
I think you are doing a great job NZsnowman. Detail all you want and we'll enjoy every bit of it.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Feb , 2012, 12:06
Here Admiral3 Simon, sailing his battleship  ;D ;D

(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/7643/simonboat.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Feb , 2012, 16:17
A fine craft, sir!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 04 Feb , 2012, 16:31
Light touch on the weathering... Period markings... Canvas looks scale to the boat... Figures on the deck to add life... I like it!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 04 Feb , 2012, 16:56
;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 09 Feb , 2012, 01:44
Sweet!  ;D
 
Here Admiral3 Simon, sailing his battleship  ;D ;D

(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/7643/simonboat.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2012, 12:50
U-1308 Lower Wintergarten

(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8114/typevii4132b.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jun , 2012, 00:26
The South Island of New Zealand as just had one of the biggest 24 hour snowfall. I got over 75cm of new snow around my house. Here a picture of the South Island today. The arrow is where I live :-D all that white is snow

(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2657/new1nn.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jun , 2012, 02:08
Here my house today (arrow)  ;D
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3927/47936210151011007223428.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 07 Jun , 2012, 10:22
Fantabuolous, Simon!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 07 Jun , 2012, 11:30
Exellent Simon. Perfect place to study submarines, just as remote as my farm which I just now shot the photo of below (red arrow). We have spring and it is a sunny afternoon. Keep the snow for the next 6 months please.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Jun , 2012, 13:55
Tore, might think about a swap.
 
1 m of snow, wind gusts of +105 km/m and -4
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 07 Jun , 2012, 14:33
Oh no sir! We just got rid of our 1-2 meter of snow and darkness, it`s 22.30 and the sun is still shining almost midnigth sun. We get our dark winternigths, but in due time not before November, your spring!
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 17 Aug , 2012, 16:32
For the first time in several years I decided to print out my drawing. Here a picture of me and one of the views of my drawing. I am thinking about printing the other views now. The printing look fantastic, I am super happy with it. It looks great at 1,200 dpi. Several of my friends ask my if it a photograph :D

(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5778/uboatv.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 18 Aug , 2012, 02:52
Absolutely amazing Simon. The patience and research behind this work is second to none. For those who migth miss the bowicon floodgates, remember U 1308 was one of the few Alberichboats. Can`t wait to see the other views.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 22 Aug , 2012, 21:40
Wow, that smile says it all - well deserved too! Looks GREAT!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Sep , 2012, 14:55
I have been watching a lot of Star Trek over the last few weeks while I was sick with the flu at home. I started to wonder what a computer displays of Star Trek would look like on a German WW2 U-boat. Here my display for the propulsion system ;D ;D

(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3246/graphic2ex.jpg)

Here the original German one.
(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3685/new1c.jpg)
(source: U-995 DVD http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml (http://www.uboataces.com/u995.shtml))
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 08 Sep , 2012, 00:03
Simon, the remote exhausttemperature readings was a novelty and technically fairly advanced. In those days exhausttemps had mostly to be recorded locally at  each cylinder outlet. As to the engineroomtelegraph, the dial is different from a conventional type, on the ahead side was dead slow (Kleine fahrt), slow ( Langsame fahrt), half ( Halbe fahrt), full (Grosse fahrt) and outmost power ( Ausserte kraft) the last did overload the engine ( we used it, unofficially,  sometimes homeward bound after 3 weeks at sea.) On the astern side was an additional order as well: "diving" (Tauchen).
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 13 Sep , 2012, 14:36
Sehr Gut LCARS Simon!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 15 Sep , 2012, 23:05
Simon,

VERY well done! You even take comedy seriously. LMAO at the LCARS!

Love it!

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Oct , 2012, 15:32
Hi All

Here a very small update and it not very exciting, sorry. More an update to said that after 5 months the ship yard for U-1308 is now open.
 
Below this the old and incorrect base plate for the main engine.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img208/3063/new4b.jpg)
Above, the new and more accurate base plate for the main engine.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 22 Oct , 2012, 00:34
Simon
To me this is exciting, memories are coming back how we sweated and toiled to get access to the crankpin bearing ( yellow area below) and to get it out of the narrow crankcasedoor ( red). One of the problems with this engine was the crankpin bearings. Quite often they had to be renewed, which was a heck of a job.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 23 Oct , 2012, 09:14
Outstanding work Simon! am looking forward to see the next updates, well done!!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Oct , 2012, 11:12
Check out this number  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

(http://imageshack.us/a/img337/6360/new5u.jpg)
 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Oct , 2012, 12:58
Check out this number  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

(http://imageshack.us/a/img337/6360/new5u.jpg)
 
Coincident ? Very flattered to have your 1308 post on my page! Congrats with your new Avetar very good!
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Oct , 2012, 13:06
Updated the drainage pipe in the aft engine room - corrected the size of the pipe and layout.

(OLD)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/3895/72343474.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img28/4627/49040263.jpg)
(NEW)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Oct , 2012, 14:37
(http://imageshack.us/a/img696/3526/52723177.jpg)
Fig. 1. Main Engine frame added.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 26 Oct , 2012, 04:59
NZ... your drawings are better and better. Good job! You obviously can visualize even the most intricate details!
Christopher...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Oct , 2012, 20:16
Simon.
Thought you was satisfied with snow for this year, we had our first snowfall for the season this morning, even way down in the lowland. I have to brace for the winter putting on the wintertyres with studs. Looking forward to se your drawing of the engine topview it`s a lot of stuff cramped on to the cylindercover. 
Tore

Hi Tore

This was what I was doing yesterday. I was mapping this avalanche event.

The avalanche was just under 45,000 m
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 31 Oct , 2012, 00:09
Don`t export it northwards here we have sufficient already, this morning it is snowing so we produce plenty of our own.
Tore.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 31 Oct , 2012, 16:31
Here a 3D view (from same web site as Maciek share with as yesterday) which is only 2 km away from where I live :D

http://www.360cities.net/image/limestone-castle-hill/?from=map,-43.23232,171.72515,15#18.01,41.18,108.3 (http://www.360cities.net/image/limestone-castle-hill/?from=map,-43.23232,171.72515,15#18.01,41.18,108.3)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 10 Nov , 2012, 00:51
Wow, LOVE the new banner
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Dec , 2012, 11:32
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7479/new6g.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/new6g.jpg/)

The thick pipe marked with letter C I believe is a sounding pipe as marjked here:

(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5879/u570dtplate8a.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/u570dtplate8a.jpg/)

(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate8A.htm (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate8A.htm))

The thinner pipe marked with letter D is hard to figure out.
I think it can be water compensating line:

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate10.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10T.jpg (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate10T.jpg)

But according to the "FUEL OIL STOWAGE AND EQUIPMENT" chapter in the type IXC study (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm (http://uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm)):
Quote
The compensating lines to the individual fuel ballast tanks run directly to the bottom of the tank while the line for the outboard normal fuel tanks leads into the small salt water niche (1.5% of fuel tank's volume) in the bottom of the tank; a line then leads from the top of the niche to the bottom of the fuel tank.

it looks as it is located to high.

It can be also exhaust gas blowing line:

(http://uboatarchive.net/U-570DTPlate16.jpg)
(source: http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm (http://uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm)

but it in the turn looks located to low.

--
Regards
Maciek

Maciek, Do you think that pipe "D" could be the exhaust gas blowing pipe?

If the Seawater compensating pipes are 60 mm and the exhaust gas blowing pipes are about 75 mm. Pipe "D" looks closer to the 75 mm ???
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Greif on 06 Dec , 2012, 07:44
Simon, your work continues to impress, beautiful and well executed as always my friend.  The avalanche looks pretty sobering that is for sure.
 
Ernest
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Dec , 2012, 12:09
Update for the Free-Flooding Vent patterns

► Made a few changes to the vents base on the better photographs of U-1105. (Top - Type VIIC/41's with the Alberich coating/Lower layer is the vent patterns for Type VIIC/41's).

Stern Vents
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4342/ventstern.jpg)

Bow Vents
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9509/ventbow.jpg)

It has been always documented that U-1306 had an Alberich coating. This morning I found photograph evidence of this. If you look hard at the Free-Flooding Vent on the deck casting (lower left of the photo) you can make out the shape of the vents and how it matches of the other Alberich boats :)

(http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2401/u1306crmoniedentreenser.jpg)
Fig. 1. U-1306. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149950&page=22 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149950&page=22)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 13 Dec , 2012, 12:26
Quote
It has been always documented that U-1306 had an Alberich coating. This morning I found photograph evidence of this. If you look hard at the Free-Flooding Vent on the deck casting (lower left of the photo) you can make out the shape of the vents and how it matches of the other Alberich boats 
Nice catch Simon!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Dec , 2012, 15:02
Hi All

I am looking for help. I am trying to draw the wooden decking outline. I have never seen any German measurement for the decking so I have to do this by line-of-sight. There are two things I need to get correct the deck outline and the deck casting outline. The problem is that the angle between the deck outline and the deck casting outline changes, at the bow and stern it look 70-80
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 14 Dec , 2012, 00:08
Simon.
I have no means to measure the angles, but am wondering about your blue casingdeck image. I the way of the lower wintergarden I guess the casing deck has a small 2nd. widening between frame 41+ and 47. See picture below. I have some photos showing KNM the decking in the vicinity of the snortmast see below, on the Kaura decking we did away with the wintergarden and the 2nd deckwidening.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Dec , 2012, 00:58
Simon.
I have no means to measure the angles, but am wondering about your blue casingdeck image. I the way of the lower wintergarden I guess the casing deck has a small 2nd. widening between frame 41+ and 47. See picture below. I have some photos showing KNM the decking in the vicinity of the snortmast see below, on the Kaura decking we did away with the wintergarden and the 2nd deckwidening.

Thanks, Tore.

I know the little winglets you are talking. I decided not to add them to this layer of the drawing, but I will add them soon.

Tore, I would be keen to see any of your photo's that you are willing to share with as that shows the wooden decking, as I am planning to draw this soon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 14 Dec , 2012, 01:36
Simon.
Here are a few photos of the wooden casingdeck, I am not sure if it is of any help though.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 14 Dec , 2012, 01:43
Simon
Further to my latest post I have another photo which you might already have in your file.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 14 Dec , 2012, 05:53
Simon.
I found a few more photos of the casingdeck.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Dec , 2012, 07:45
Thanks Tore, they will be very useful!!  :) :)   I want to research the later 'planked' decks.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Dec , 2012, 16:54
A very big day for U-1308, the first part of her deck was lay. The dockworkers this morning were able to added the stern Torpedo Loading hatches, the Exhaust Access hatches and the Exhaust Outlet Control Valve hatches.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img13/6906/new2kx.jpg)
Fig. 1. U-1308 new deck.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img651/261/new3hn.jpg)
Fig. 2. Cover hatches remove so we can see that under them.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 18 Dec , 2012, 22:49
Simon.
Looks very good!
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Dec , 2012, 11:35
Added the torpedo loading frames resets for the vertical poles. Not all U-boats that had the late war
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 19 Dec , 2012, 13:44
Even the wooden casingdeck has it special details! Gentlemen this is going to be scientific documentation.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Dec , 2012, 15:41
U-1308 decking :)

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2908/new1fg.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Dec , 2012, 15:59
Hatch Covers

Hatch cover (left) Fuel Oil.
Hatch cover (middle) Engine Lubricating Oil.
Hatch cover (Right) Fuel oil compensating system & Low pressure exhaust gas and emergency blowing systems

(http://imageshack.us/a/img15/5446/new6x.jpg)


(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/8765/new4ag.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 21 Dec , 2012, 01:48
Simon.
Very good, but I miss the wooden deckhatch for the galley hatch, see my to days post in the other thread.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Dec , 2012, 15:39
Galley Hatch Cover

U-1308 got its galley hatch installed this morning :)

Tore/Maciek/or All, does anyone know what are the four small reset found around the galley hatch? They are found on the Type VIIB and Type VIIC's. The single reset on the port side is for the 'T' handle of the galley hatch.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img32/7306/new1sl.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img12/9554/new2wm.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Dec , 2012, 23:46
The crew of U-1308 would like to wish you all a Happy Holidays and a great New Year.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Dec , 2012, 00:00
Simon.
As shown on my recent photo I guess these recesses are openings for the T bars to various external valves under the casing deck, thus no spindlewheels on the valves.To tell which hole goes to which valve is probably very difficult. My guess is that it might be in connection with bunkering of fuel, luboil, freshwater and that sort of thing. The location of the valves around the galley hatch was convenient for communication with the people in the engineroom, remember these were the days before walky talkies.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Dec , 2012, 12:09
Simon.
I have no means to measure the angles, but am wondering about your blue casingdeck image. I the way of the lower wintergarden I guess the casing deck has a small 2nd. widening between frame 41+ and 47. See picture below. I have some photos showing KNM the decking in the vicinity of the snortmast see below, on the Kaura decking we did away with the wintergarden and the 2nd deckwidening.

Hi Tore

I checked my photo's this morning and many the late war Type VIIC/41 don't have this 2nd widening. I imagine near the end of the war the Germans were keeping the boats very simply.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 29 Dec , 2012, 12:38
Simon
I guess you are right. The below picture of U 995 with wintergarden from may 1945 shows she didn`t have this widening.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Dec , 2012, 13:30
Tore, in almost ever photo of the late war 'planked' deck, including KNM Kaura/U-995.  I can found large darker holes along the outer edge wooden plank, right next to the sidewall casting, You can see them very clearly in the photo of U-249. They are space every 400-500 mm around the edge and are used to fix the outer wooden plank to the deck frame.

You toll me that the Germans used wooden plugs on the deck, so my question is why are these one not plugged like the main deck; why are they bigger (are these fixed with larger bolts than the main deck). Tore can you remember anything about these holes?

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-249Eriboll612.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 29 Dec , 2012, 14:43
Simon.
I cannot recall we ever had so many holes as on U 249, but we had larger holes for the stanchions of the railing which was pretty much used in peacetime. In war times and during exercises they were removed leaving only the holes in the wooden deck along the casing. The reason why they were removed was due to rattling while submerged.
Below a photo of KNM Kaura with the stanchions fitted.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Dec , 2012, 21:52
Simon.
I cannot recall we ever had so many holes as on U 249, but we had larger holes for the stanchions of the railing which was pretty much used in peacetime. In war times and during exercises they were removed leaving only the holes in the wooden deck along the casing. The reason why they were removed was due to rattling while submerged.
Below a photo of KNM Kaura with the stanchions fitted.
Tore

Hi Tore

I was able to workout the locations of the stanchions base on your photo's and a late war Type VIIC plan. The Germans changed the layout of the stanchions between the early war and the late war Type VIIC's.

I recheck my photo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 30 Dec , 2012, 00:33
Simon.
I believe you are right checking all my photos, the wooden planking has a regular row of holes at the casingsides as can be seen on my photo of KNM Kaura U 995 below. The holes are not on the steelpart of the deck so I guess they are a part of the wooden planking construction ( fastening) to the steel support and probably at the point where the transfer girders joins the casing, see photo. I take it they are boltholes and have no other functions.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 05 Jan , 2013, 13:30


Is anyone able to help me with this, thanks.

Seitenlenzrohre Trimmieitungen auf UBoote

Also

Abfailrohre

Hilfslenzleitungen
Abfailrohre der Hilfslenzeinrichtung (Entw
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 05 Jan , 2013, 14:56
Simon.
If you mean translation.
Seitenlenzrohre trimmleitungen auf U boote= side drain ( branch) pipes, trim pipes on submarines.
Hilflenzleitungen abfallrohre der hilflenzeinrichtung ( entwasserungsrohre nach dem shiffsinneren) =auxilliary drain pipe.  Slanting branchpipe from the auxilliary drainpipe device ( Drainagepipe towards inside the ship).
Hauptlenzleitungen= main drainage pipe.
To have a correct translation you  need the reference drawing, but may be this will do.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dbauer on 05 Jan , 2013, 17:21
Hey Guy!
Now with the new Revell of Germany Type IXC coming out any thoughts on doing this for the Type IXC??!!!!?? ::)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Jan , 2013, 00:01
Would be great to do the Type XI research, but keen to finish the Type VIIC's first :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 06 Jan , 2013, 00:20
Simon.
I guess your work on the VIICs makes the type XI research much easier
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: dbauer on 06 Jan , 2013, 07:19
 :)  Alot of work guy!
The Two types do have some things simular. But they also have alot of differences too! It would be nice to see something done for the Type IX however. The Type VII gets all the press because of the movies! ::)
Regards,
Dan
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 09 Jan , 2013, 14:25
Does anyone know if the German change the location of the rear deck casing bollards, as I have two drawings showing two different locations for them :(
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Jan , 2013, 18:34
The dockworkers are happy today as the deck of U-1308 was finally laid. Where still work to be does like adding the missing hatch covers and the watertight containers. The hardness thing for the dockworkers was to workout the outlay of the bridge casting.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img837/8789/u13081.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img339/1035/u13082.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img252/1263/u13083.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img441/4577/u13084.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 13 Jan , 2013, 03:07
Simon looks very good.
A question on the saddletanks manhole covers. Apparently there are variations, I seems to remember they were oval shape like on the drawing below and the photos of U 995 and your photo of U 249. I assumed your research on U 1308 has resulted in the arrangement, two round and three oval, on your  drawing.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 Jan , 2013, 11:21
Simon looks very good.
A question on the saddletanks manhole covers. Apparently there are variations, I seems to remember they were oval shape like on the drawing below and the photos of U 995 and your photo of U 249. I assumed your research on U 1308 has resulted in the arrangement, two round and three oval, on your  drawing.
Tore

Tore, I think the discussion about round and oval saddle tanks manhole covers have been around for the last thirty years ;D
 
Below is a link to our discussion about the saddle tanks manhole covers and the reason for the two round and three oval arrangement.

models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg6698#msg6698 (http://models.rokket.biz/models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=106.msg6698#msg6698)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Jan , 2013, 21:14
(http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/6972/new1tc.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 16 Jan , 2013, 00:44
Simon.
I guess the deckcontainers came in sections one by one. U 995 did not have containers in May 1945, see photo. In my time we had two. My other photo of U 1023 shows three containers. Our other VIICs had 3 and 4 containers.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2013, 13:53
Q. Maciek, double checking this is Emergency vent system for the MB & RFO Tank 2 (Bb & Stb)?
Q. Tore, I  imagine the handle on valve d1 were removed like the other valves along the pressure hull?
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate16.htm)
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/8017/new1t.jpg)

Q. Tore/Maciek, valve b1 can control from the Control Room and Engine Room?
(http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/8613/new3k.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2013, 14:16
Q. Tore/Maciek, I imagine small pipes are high pressure lines?

(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/64/new6d.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2013, 14:23
Q. Tore/Maciek, why are there small metal tab partly around these hull bolts? I seen this before on pressure hull flanges.

(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/109/new7f.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 06 Feb , 2013, 14:39
Simon.
These plates are lockingplates generally used on essential nuts to prevent vibration etc unscrew the nuts.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2013, 14:44
Simon.
These plates are lockingplates generally used on essential nuts to prevent vibration etc unscrew the nuts.
Tore

I can not imagine it was good to have they bolts falling out ;D ;)

Tore, were they a softer metal?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 06 Feb , 2013, 21:42
Updated Interconnector MB & ROL Tank 2
(http://imageshack.us/a/img27/6804/new1lp.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/a/img802/5714/new2u.jpg)
Fig. 1. (Left) Old drawing; (Right) New updated drawing.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 07 Feb , 2013, 01:06
Simon.
These plates are lockingplates generally used on essential nuts to prevent vibration etc unscrew the nuts.
Tore

I can not imagine it was good to have they bolts falling out ;D ;)

Tore, were they a softer metal?


Simon.
The locking plates are very much in use today as well and are not of particulary soft steel. For instant inside the engine crankcase all the nuts are locked in this way. The other alternative is to use a locking wire, if you remember the adjusting nuts of the main engine inlet and exhaustvalves were locked by a wire.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 07 Feb , 2013, 01:24
Simon.
Venting of mainballast tanks 2 port and starboard
I don`t think the ventvalves operated in the engine room is an emergency venting. I would rather name it as a residueventing. The idea is when diving at a sharp angle, air would be trapped in the aft end of main ballast tank 2 port and starboard and the venting system takes care of this trapped air.
I guess you are right in removing the valvewheel d1
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 07 Feb , 2013, 02:44
Simon
Valve b1.Residueventing
The valve is operated both from the controlroom and engine room, see drawing below.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 07 Feb , 2013, 03:29
Hi Guys,


Q. Maciek, double checking this is Emergency vent system for the MB & RFO Tank 2 (Bb & Stb)?

As Tore said, it is rather Restentluft
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Feb , 2013, 11:25
Hi Guys,

Q. Tore/Maciek, I imagine small pipes are high pressure lines?

Hard to say, they can be high pressure lines (but I don't know, why they were led to the bottom), or fuel oil sounding lines.


--
Regards
Maciek

Thanks Guys for all the answers.

I was asking the question about the small pipe because I have seen this style of external pressure hull opening several times before being used on smaller pipes.

I still not seen any pictures of the high pressure air lines external pressure hull opening, and I starting to think the German use this style to get the high pressure air lines inside.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 07 Feb , 2013, 11:41
My purely explosive point of view is that a line leading entirely to the bottom of an oil/fuel filled chamber is more of a sounding line than not. It is not likely used for filling, nor is it likely used  to determine anything but the level of the tank it leads to... Tanks tend to be filled from the top... where air can get out.

That does not refer to HP tanks... which are filled as needed of course... (edit at 1348 ish)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 Feb , 2013, 11:46
Simon
Valve b1.Residueventing
The valve is operated both from the controlroom and engine room, see drawing below.
Tore

I wish I have checked this plate better yesterday :-[
 
I looked at is plate yesterday but did not notice this drawing of the valve :( It would had save me a couple hours of research trying to decide if the pipe went under or over Forward Diesel Exhaust Pipe.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 07 Feb , 2013, 11:57
At least we have a point to go back to, eh Simon! Buddha knows how many hours I have spent on drawings... only to have to go back and make changes!... Christopher
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 07 Feb , 2013, 12:31
At least we have a point to go back to, eh Simon! Buddha knows how many hours I have spent on drawings... only to have to go back and make changes!... Christopher
I just found changes on my own study of the umlufthellhahn I need to change
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 07 Feb , 2013, 12:32
where the link connects to the piston stop... I have that wrong setup.... I guess I know what I will be doing after I pick up the wife from the airport this afternoon... :-)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 07 Feb , 2013, 12:49
I meant that only in terms of my drawing.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 07 Feb , 2013, 14:26
Simon
IXC piping
Again I don`t know the IXC very well but this kind of pipes looks like HPairpipes particulary where they enter the pressurehull. I believe the only pipe which could match in size would be the fuel testing pipe having intake from some 10 cm up from the tankbottom going all the way to the top but outside the pressurehull. I agree it sounds strange that the blowingpipes are going to the tankbottom, howewer the exhaustblowingpipes are doing the same. As to the mysterious box I have no idea.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Feb , 2013, 14:58
Simon.
These plates are lockingplates generally used on essential nuts to prevent vibration etc unscrew the nuts.
Tore

Q. How do you know when you are going mad with detail?
 
 A. When you start adding locking plates to the pipe flange  ;D
 
(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/9017/graphic1ry.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 18 Feb , 2013, 23:12
Where did you find a pipe flange having 24 nuts in a VIIC Simon? ;D
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 18 Feb , 2013, 23:44
Where did you find a pipe flange having 24 nuts in a VIIC Simon? ;D
Tore

It's the flange from the pressure hull opening for the exhaust.
 
I only have the one photo that showing my any part of this flange. From the photo I can not be 100% sure it has 24 nuts. So I base the number of nuts on the size of the flange, the size of the nuts and the spacing of the nuts that I can see from the photo.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 19 Feb , 2013, 00:03
I see, the end cover of the group exhaustvalve. I believe the cover has a coolingwater connection, may be double wall? and I am not sure the nuts are locked by lockingplates though ;D .
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Feb , 2013, 01:20
I see, the end cover of the group exhaustvalve. I believe the cover has a coolingwater connection, may be double wall? and I am not sure the nuts are locked by lockingplates though ;D .
Tore

(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4726/new1qf.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 19 Feb , 2013, 07:45
Simon.
 The flange towards the pressurehull have indeed bolts fixed with lockingplates. Interesting view angle. Working with the pipes on the group exhaust valve housing, hoping to be able to revert tomorrow my time.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Feb , 2013, 14:42
From: C.B.  4318 REPORT ON "U-570" (H.M.S. "GRAPH")

H.P. Air Line

There are six groups of air bottles totalling twelve bottles.  Nos. 1, 2 and 6 groups are located externally in the casing, No. 3 in the E.R.A.'s mess, Nos. 4 and 5 groups in the torpedo compartment.  The bottles are charged by a Junkers diesel air compressor and a Krupp electric air compressor.

2.  The working pressure is 205 atms. and the air line is made of copper, external diameter 11/16 in., internal diameter 7/17 in.


Tore & Maciek, I imagine the copper was replace with steel, in the later war?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 19 Feb , 2013, 19:16
Added 3 new pressure hull openings.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img209/2690/new2o.jpg)
Fig. 1. Pressure Hull openings.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img585/9225/new1iy.jpg)
Fig. 2. Piping and things found under the decking.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img21/2156/new3rd.jpg)
Fig. 3. Closeup view of the Muffler Exhaust Valve control arm (left), and the high pressure air lines entering the engine room (right).
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 19 Feb , 2013, 23:34
Simon.
HP air copperlines.
I guess you are right , I would go for steelpipes.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 20 Feb , 2013, 00:19
Simon
Mufllervalve linkage.
I have no idea about this detail, and may be you have drawn the arrangement based on better sources than I have,  but seeing the photo of the IXC I wonder if it could be a linkage as shown below. I should however trust a better reference than me. :D
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2013, 01:31
Simon
Mufllervalve linkage.
I have no idea about this detail, and may be you have drawn the arrangement based on better sources than I have,  but seeing the photo of the IXC I wonder if it could be a linkage as shown below. I should however trust a better reference than me. :D
Tore

I have one very grainy photo that barely shows any detail, it only really show outlines. I took a educated guess that it run to the centre, but I think your idea is better than my so I will change it in the morning.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2013, 01:38
These are the only photo's I have of this area, and they are from U-250. If you look very hard you can see something that look like the control rod and a right-angle gearbox ::)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img7/9803/new2or.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img585/3086/new1hn.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2013, 12:33
New Main Exhaust Gas Blow Valve

(http://imageshack.us/a/img651/3052/new2oy.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/7865/new3my.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2013, 13:47
Simon
Mufllervalve linkage.
I have no idea about this detail, and may be you have drawn the arrangement based on better sources than I have,  but seeing the photo of the IXC I wonder if it could be a linkage as shown below. I should however trust a better reference than me. :D
Tore

Tore, how the new linkage looks?

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4379/new1u.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 20 Feb , 2013, 14:26
Simon.
More to my liking, well done! ;D
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Feb , 2013, 20:32
Simon
Mufllervalve linkage.
I have no idea about this detail, and may be you have drawn the arrangement based on better sources than I have,  but seeing the photo of the IXC I wonder if it could be a linkage as shown below. I should however trust a better reference than me. :D
Tore

Tore, how the new linkage looks?

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4379/new1u.jpg)

The other view ;)
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7364/new1hi.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 22 Feb , 2013, 00:37
Simon
I should assume the mufflervalve would be in the next section of the exhaust outlet, which means the linkgage would lead to the lower part of the muffler valve casing matching the shaft turning the muffles flapvalve against the exhaust outlet, thus having the waterpressure behind the valvedisc.  See my rough sketch of the group exhaustvalve. As to the pressurehull passing , I am not sure if the group exhaust housing goes Right through to the outboard exhaust pipebend or if it stops at the pressure hull flange. In the latter case a coolingwater pipe has to bridge the flange. A typical hullflange has a steel ring thicker than the pressure hull welded to  to same. On this flange the are the flange boltholes not drilled Right through. Below is a sketch showing the system. In the case of the group exhaust doublewall casing the flange had to be intergrated in the casing ( a complication) but the coolingwater bridgecould be avoided.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Mar , 2013, 03:07
WOW! :o :o

99,987 Views

Look like we may get 100,000 views tonights.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Apr , 2013, 01:59
A look back in time  ;D

In 2008

(http://imageshack.us/a/img16/3/engineroom2008.jpg)

In 2009
(http://imageshack.us/a/img16/3025/engineroom2009.jpg)

In 2013
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1426/engineroom2013.jpg)
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/9083/engineroom2013a.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Apr , 2013, 02:11
Simon.
Great! From a dead "box"to a fully workable engine with complex pipesystems. Just a few details missing and then you can start up. ;D
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Johann Vilthomsen on 24 Apr , 2013, 02:40
Simon, my English is not very good, so do not write a lot in the forum. I always follow your work of extraordinary accuracy.
Dani
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Apr , 2013, 17:13
Have you ever wonder that the piping looks like in the engine room on a Type VIIC/41, here your chance. These drawings are base on the Design and Specification Books, Volume M that was found aboard U-570, shipyard drawings and U-995. During the research we found evidence of three reviews of the engine room. The first was around mid 1941, the second is around mid 1943 and the last sometime late 1944. My drawings are base on the late 1944 version.

Drainage system

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate6T.jpg)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate6.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate6.htm)

(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5996/page1anb.jpg)


Anti-corrosion oil-circulating system

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13T.jpg)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13.htm)

(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/3339/page2nx.jpg)


Engine lubricating oil system

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate14T.jpg)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate14.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate14.htm)

(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/3653/page4li.jpg)


Cooling-water system

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13T.jpg)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate13.htm)

(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6821/page3ay.jpg)



Engine starting air and induction air (for Krupp engines)

(http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate15T.jpg)
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate15.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570Plate15.htm)

(http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/492/page5dq.jpg)



Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 29 Apr , 2013, 20:12
Propulsion System

Starting to come together :)

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8317/engineroom2p.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 30 Apr , 2013, 01:04
Simon.
Exellent and quick correction. Even with all the work done so far, still a bit to go before the propellors are turning. Lots of fun and work ahead. ;D
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 30 Apr , 2013, 14:43
I was wondering if anyone realise this icon/symbol?

(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4829/new2ca.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Howiek on 01 May , 2013, 00:32
I was wondering if anyone realise this icon/symbol?

(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4829/new2ca.jpg)


That looks like VARTA, a German battery manufacturer.

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 01 May , 2013, 00:51
Hi Howiek

Welcome aboard!

The icon/symbol is on two batteries in U-995  :) :)

Simon
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Howiek on 01 May , 2013, 04:23
Thanks, Simon.


I've been following this forum for years now, especially your incredible work. But so far, there was nothing where I could contribute. We recently moved to Hamburg and I'm preparing my first visit to U-995 (about an hour from where I live.......).


Thomas
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: TopherVIIC on 01 May , 2013, 06:18
Howiek -
Congratulations on your move! How are your photographic skills my friend? ;-)
Christopher

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 01 May , 2013, 15:30
Hi Howiek,


welcome to this forum. 


But so far, there was nothing where I could contribute. We recently moved to Hamburg and I'm preparing my first visit to U-995 (about an hour from where I live.......).

What would you say about creating "photo wish-list"?  ;)


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Howiek on 02 May , 2013, 01:14
Hi Topher and Maciek,


thank you. That photo wish-list thing sounds good. As soon as I have the date of my visit I'll let you all know and we can start gathering the list........


Thomas
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 02 May , 2013, 01:42
Hi Howiek
Welcome from this part of the world as well. The photowish list is a good idea, I have been playing with the idea as well, but I am afraid it could be a long list. I live about 18 hours ferry trip from Kiel and passed the U 995 about once a month for several years as I was involved in the engines of the Oslo- Kiel passenger car/vessels. I never found the time to visit my old boat though. :)
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Anakin on 02 May , 2013, 11:07
Hi and welcome to the forum!

Always nice to meet u-boat nuts people   ;D   The wish-list will be long if these few already replied members liberates all their wishes!   ::)

And tore...  You know how they say about when you are retired...  You are starting to get too busy...   ;D   I hope you find some time to visit your boat soon!  :)

-Anakin-
 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Howiek on 03 May , 2013, 01:43
Thanks, Tore and Anakin. I think it is great to be among these u-boat nuts. Well, Gentlemen, when I have the date nailed down, I'll open a thread for the wish-list..... let's see if we can come up with some ideas.......
Thomas
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 07 May , 2013, 16:08
I have been looking at the angle of the Balconger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Anakin on 08 May , 2013, 08:07
I have been looking at the angle of the Balconger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 12 May , 2013, 13:09
Hi,


I have studied "Die Sonaranlagen der deutschen U-Boote" by Eberhard R
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 13 May , 2013, 14:43
Hi,


I have studied "Die Sonaranlagen der deutschen U-Boote" by Eberhard R
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 15 May , 2013, 02:19
Hi Simon,



Maciek, the "July 1942" date, is this the data that it was first discuss or a typo? I have a data of July 1943 for the sea trials of U-194.


This is not a typo, the first trials (but with receivers located on both sides of keel) were conducted in the beginning of July 1942 (with U 185), then - in the end of July the Balkon was designed, and in September there was a decision to conduct trials with U 194 and U 719 (type IXC and VIIC respectively). There is a photo presenting U 194 with Balkon dated on January 1943. The first trials with U 194 were conducted near Bornholm in the end of February.


Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Aug , 2013, 23:58
My old computer monitor departed this world last week, so it was time to buy a new one.

Initially I thought I go for two 23
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: falo on 21 Sep , 2013, 03:18
Hello,

in the meantime just a "Alberich-question": Do you think that the upper pressure hull was also coated with rubber tiles? It appears to be consequential to have done this, hardly to believe that the wooden deck absorbed the Asdic-Signals, but would the rubber coat have stand the enormous temperature of the exhaust pipes, for example? Just wondering about that since I followed your outstanding drawings.

Good luck with the new monitor
Falo

P.S.: My first post here, I was a "unregistered member" for years.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Sep , 2013, 23:10
 The upper pressure hull was coated. Some of the tiles were riveted, so I imagine those were the tiles along the waterline.
 
 I do not know if the exhaust gases were that hot by the time the exit the exhaust piping.
 
 Tore, how hot do you think the exhaust gases were when they hit the sea water?
 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Sep , 2013, 10:18
The exhaustgases would have a temperature of approx. 400 degrees C leaving the engines and I should imagine the would dammage the syntetic rubber at the outlet. Anyhow the exhaustgases made the seawater steaming at the outlet. In case of the original U 995 outletexecution a 2.5-2 mm layer of syntetic rubber would be dammaged I guess.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Sep , 2013, 10:57
I just had a second looked at a photo of U-1105, that has style 6 exhaust outlet and the tiles look like they go right to the exhaust outlet; And perhaps over the cover ??? I will post the picture later.

Tore, I through that the Germans used sea water to help cool down exhaust gases after they leave the engines, this is correct?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Sep , 2013, 13:47
Simon.
I can`t remember but I don`t think so. If you look at the exhaust pipe, muffler and sparkarrestor there are no seawaterconnections to my knowledge.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Sep , 2013, 14:48
Simon.
In order to prevent misunderstanding, by no seacooling water connection I mean direct injection. As we all know from the previous discussions, the exhaust pipes, valves and silencers are of course cooled by the engine sea coolingwater which to a certain degree cools the exhaustgases as well.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: falo on 24 Sep , 2013, 16:22
Thanks for the information and discussing the upper pressure hull coating.

Snowman and Tore: I think my thoughts about the exhaust temperatures were inartfully expressed (sorry my fault). I meant the temperature fluctuations which the tiles and mainly the adhesive had to endure along the exhaust pipes.

Snowman: Do you have a special source (reports, photos etc.) concerning to the alberich coating? Your knowledge about that matter seemed to be unlimited.

Thanks again, can't wait for the next schematic-drawing-update.

Falo

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 12 Oct , 2013, 14:01
My new decktop @ 2560 x 1440  :)

(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9601/0rvh.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 13 Oct , 2013, 02:16
Incredible Simon!
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 14 Oct , 2013, 09:09
Fantabulous!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 16 Oct , 2013, 00:54
That's amazing! Not too much white space left either!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Oct , 2013, 14:39
I was able to workout three more deck hatches around the front of the bridge this morning :)

(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5286/c6fp.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 19 Oct , 2013, 17:29
no image for me...
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Oct , 2013, 15:06
Maciek, do you know if on the late war Type VII/41 if the stern reserve torpedo container was remover?
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 21 Oct , 2013, 04:09
Hi Simon,


Maciek, do you know if on the late war Type VII/41 if the stern reserve torpedo container was remover?


I believe - yes. There are a lot of statements in the reports from the interrogation of the U-Boat survivors, ie:
U607, in 1943
Quote
Upper deck containers had been removed.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-607INT.htm


U575, in 1943
Quote
Not fitted on last two patrols.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INT.htm


U615, in 1943
Quote
Before the last patrol, the two upper deck containers were removed
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-615INT.htm


U660, in 1942
Quote
Two upper deck containers were removed in La Spezia.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-660INT.htm


U453, in 1942
Quote
Removed sometime prior to 7th patrol (late 1942).
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-453INT.htm


U371, in 1942
Quote
Upper deck containers removed after third patrol.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-371INT.htm


But also, in BdU KTB we can find (May, 1943):
Quote
Attacks on submerged boats with new types of location methods and apparently more powerful depth charges than previously, have become more concentrated. The recent increase in cases of damage to upper deck containers proves that more powerful depth charges are being used.  These containers must always be especially dangerous if weight is suddenly increased; thus boats operating in the North Atlantic had to be ordered to leave upper deck containers behind.
Quote
Provision of upper deck containers:
    On 30.4 the order was given to omit upper deck containers when fitting out all boats operating in the North Atlantic.  This order was necessitated by the gradually increasing number of cases where, when the boats were depth-charged or bombed, especially at fairly great depths, the upper deck containers were cracked or started leaking, or were swamped and thus very gravely endangered the boat, especially the Type IX which carries 8 deck containers.  It is suspected that this has been the cause of the loss of many boats.
    The following orders are now in force for the provision of upper deck containers:
    1)   Type VIIb, c, d - none.
    2)   Type IXb, c - normally none.
        Type IXc is to take 6 upper deck containers with 6 torpedoes when special orders are given, but only on operations in the south.
    3)   Type IXd - 12 upper deck containers with 12 torpedoes.
    Thus, the upper deck cargo for IXc boats operating in the south has been reduced from 8 to 6 torpedoes to reduce the danger to the boat if containers should spring a leak.   
      In connection with the foregoing order Ob.d.M. made the following decision regarding new construction of upper deck containers.
    i)    Containers on all boats in commission will not be replaced if they have proved faulty.
    ii)   New construction Type VIIc will be equipped with stronger iron upper deck containers as already planned, also, as before, the loading gear for use at sea.
    iii)   New construction Type IXc will be equipped with 6 upper deck containers built of light metal, but possessing greater stability; Type IXd will carry 12 containers.
    iv)    Type IXb and c boats putting to sea without upper deck containers will not have their ballast redistributed, but will carry some 5 tons less fuel.
    v)   Type Xb will be issued with 6 upper deck containers as before, but they are only to be put on board if special orders are given.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30323.htm


--
Regards
Maciek



Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Oct , 2013, 12:53
Thanks, Maciek.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Oct , 2013, 13:34
Reworked the whole Exhaust Gas Blowing System.

(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/9418/cgex.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 21 Oct , 2013, 15:35
Same system as above, but this time from the side view. The pipes are very hard to found but if you look around the base of the CT you can found the open ends ;)

(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4434/7iil.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 22 Oct , 2013, 05:19
Simon.
As usual high standards.
 A few remarks as to the drainage of the air intakes , both dieselair intake and ventilation air, which I assume you shall fit in later. As a standard diving procedure in the controlroom the drains were always opened at diving to check possible leakages on the air inlet valves. As indicated on the sketch below you see the drains ended up at the funnel fitted on the aft end of the attackperiscope shaft, the man responsible for the shutting of the valves had the duty to check the leakages as well. In rough wheather water was flushing down the drain so the drain plaid an important role. The sketch below showing the arrangement based on a handsketch showing the old schnorchel arrangement having the connection to the ventilation system and not the dieselair as the case of U 1308.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 22 Oct , 2013, 06:23
Simon.
Air ventilation system.
As Maciek correctly pointed out some time ago, the valve of the stb ventilation duct is removed in the controlroom of U 995 (see his picture below). The valve on port is kept.
I believe the reason for this could be the introduction of the schnorchel and rough wheather experience. The first schnorchelsystem had the arrangement as shown in my previous post e.g. schnorchel air inlet into the air ventilation duct and crossover later to the dieselair duct. On the later execution the air entered directly into the diesel airduct. The dieselair intake is able to handle considerable amount of water as it ends up in two large ducts going almost to the port and starboard bilges. The ventilationducts ends directly into the fans and in spite of drainage there is a risk of water entering the system. In fact a German description of the schnorchel system provided earlier by Maciek mention this (see picture below).The marked German text reads freely translated: "This now makes it possible to get the air into the boat through the dieselair footvalve. This way of airsupply is necessary to avoid waterpenetration into the ventilation airducts and damage to the electric plant."
This corresponds very much to my experience and we rather used the dieselengine air duct for ventilation.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: falo on 24 Oct , 2013, 07:24
Hay Snowman,

do you know the attached photo? The picture is "Alberich" (U-1105) related and maybe helpful for your drawings.

I am not sure about the source but I suppose the image is shown in the german book "U-Boot Typ VII: Vom Original zum Modell" and illustrates the lower bow section of "U-1105" during it's shipyard inspection in England after the german surrender (as written in the image description). I catched it for a few months ago via screenshot but I don't know which URL-adress it was.

Interesting to me seems the fact that the "Balkongeraet" was fitted behind "Tauchzelle 5" and not in front of it. The author says that this kind of mounting had its advantage in using the "Balkongeraet" also under snorkel operations and not least in wider scanning ranges (summary of the german image description).

Guess there has to be lot of pictures in british archives about the inspection of U-1105 (?)

Falo   
(thanks for the "Schematic-Drawings"-Update)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Oct , 2013, 10:11
Simon.
 Sorry I mixed up the ventilation ductvalves in my post of yesterday. Port is kept and starboard is removed. :-[
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Oct , 2013, 12:50
Hay Snowman,

do you know the attached photo? The picture is "Alberich" (U-1105) related and maybe helpful for your drawings.

I am not sure about the source but I suppose the image is shown in the german book "U-Boot Typ VII: Vom Original zum Modell" and illustrates the lower bow section of "U-1105" during it's shipyard inspection in England after the german surrender (as written in the image description). I catched it for a few months ago via screenshot but I don't know which URL-adress it was.

Interesting to me seems the fact that the "Balkongeraet" was fitted behind "Tauchzelle 5" and not in front of it. The author says that this kind of mounting had its advantage in using the "Balkongeraet" also under snorkel operations and not least in wider scanning ranges (summary of the german image description).

Guess there has to be lot of pictures in british archives about the inspection of U-1105 (?)

Falo   
(thanks for the "Schematic-Drawings"-Update)

Thanks for the photo :) I have seen it before but this is the clearest version I seen.
 
I carryout a large amount of research on the Type VIIC's Balconger
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: falo on 25 Oct , 2013, 10:42
Hay Simon,


I catched some more "Balkongeraet" (GHG) images from the same (unknown) source. Maybe these images are interesting for you too. Again I used the screenshot feature of my computer at that time to nab some views.


By the way, I have a favor to ask you: Could you please post the announced image of the coated upper pressure hull as described?


[/color]("[/size][/color][/font]I just had a second looked at a photo of U-1105, that has style 6 exhaust outlet and the tiles look like they go right to the exhaust outlet; And perhaps over the cover. I will post the picture later."[/color]). [/size]


I am curious to look at this picture.


Thanks in advance
falo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Oct , 2013, 13:04
Falo, from the photo below you are see the tiles go right to the exhaust outlet. If you look at the edge of the exhaust outlet you can see two large black spots and a narrow band around the edge of the exhaust outlet.
 
I believe the two large black spots are rivets and the narrow band is a steel band that hold the tile to the edge of the exhaust outlet.

(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9913/er1u.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Oct , 2013, 16:51
Maciek, finally got around and finch all the little updates on the bow torpedo tubes. Lots of small changes, can not remember them all, but the keys one are a whole new door hinge/control arm, and the fins on the forward part of the tube.

Maciek, do you have any photo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 26 Oct , 2013, 02:39
Simon.
Sorry for mingling into a field which is not my speciality. I have a photo in my file of just the frontdoor of the torpedo tube, probably known to you. Of course the linkage for folding in the outer casingdoors are not shown. I am sure Maciek have more elaborate photos.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Feb , 2014, 18:46
SCHNORCHEL PISTON

Maciek, recently provided me some additional information about the Schnorchel, so I have updated my drawing. The new Schnorchel piston drawings are significantly more detail and correct compare to my old drawing.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7303/12530489005_a5e19b61b1_o.jpg)
Fig. 1. Top view.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5473/12530152105_5dc0158e2b_o.jpg)
Fig. 2. Side view, red box is the Schnorchel mast  at 0°.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7364/12531113774_07b825456d_o.jpg)
Fig. 3. Side view, red box is the Schnorchel mast at 45°.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7363/12530758913_6971cc7f8e_o.jpg)
Fig. 3. Side view, red box is the Schnorchel mast at 90°.

There is some suggestion that there are two styles of Schnorchel piston found on the Type VIIC's, a 'Loop' design as seen in most photographs and a 'streamline' design as see on some plans and drawings. My research indicates that there is only one schnorchel piston design, the 'Loop' design. It is believed that incorrect plans, poor quality photographs, the current configuration of U-995 and the Type VIIC Revell models have all led to suggest of a second 'streamline' schnorchel piston and pipe design. Schnorchel mast is raised and lowered by the Schnorchel piston that is controlled by two hand wheels in the control room which activate a hydraulic mechanism. One hand-wheel is turned to "Open" for rising, when the Schnorchel is to be lowered, this wheel must be in the "Closed" position and the other wheel turned to "Open".
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 14 Feb , 2014, 21:09
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3770/12532921934_e13659b658_o.jpg)
Fig. 1. Top view, Schnorchel head.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7451/12532557723_9aacda4610_o.jpg)
Fig. 2. Top view, Schnorchel head and Schnorchel piston.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 15 Feb , 2014, 03:24
Hi Simon!
Sign of life from Africa.
The usual high quality of the drawings,but I have a few remarks. If we return to the original U 995 version having the schnorkel installed in March -April 1945 you see the sketch of same below.
Of course you are aware of the lockingpins in upright and lowered position.
Knowing your interest for details I shall point out the schnorkel position indicator placed in the forward controlroom, see photo and don`t be confused by the red drain cock on the voicepipe. The double indicatorpointers are very much like some pointers on boardvalves.

I have still avoided the lions ;D
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 15 Feb , 2014, 17:40
Update: Corrected the base of the mount.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/12551008525_bdb0d93b67_o.png)

The rare Twin 3.7 cm Flakzwilling M43U on the DLM 42 U mount. This was one of the best AA weapons used by the German Kriegsmarine during World War II. It was mainly used on the Type IX as it was rather heavy for the Type VII U-boats.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 16 Feb , 2014, 17:53
3.7cm Flak M42U
The 3.7cm Flak M42U was the marine version of the 3.7cm Flak used by the Kriegsmarine on Type VII and Type IX U-boats. The improvement was base on the earlier 3.7cm Flak SK C/30 developed by Rheinmetall. The 3.7cm Flak M42U used several types of mounts and entered service in autumn 1943.

LM 42U Mount
The LM 42U mount was developed specifically for the 3.7cm Flak M42U. It was man by a 3 man crew, with a fourth man, the loader.

LM 43U Mount
The LM 43U mount was the final deign of mount used on U-boats. It further improvement on the LM 42U. The LM 43U was only known to be installed on three U-boats (U-1171, U-1305 and U-1306).

DLM 42U Mount
The twin mount was base on the  design, in which the 3.7cm Flak M42U guns were mounted side by side.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7310/12577629344_4067f51e3c_o.png)
Fig. 1. A Single 3.7cm Flak M42U gun on the LM 43U mount.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/12551008525_bdb0d93b67_o.png)
Fig. 2. A Twin 3.7cm Flak M42U guns on the LM 42U mount.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SG on 17 Feb , 2014, 07:19
GREAT WORK SIMON!!!!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 18 Feb , 2014, 00:36
as always!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 20 Feb , 2014, 12:40
Hi,


Simon, great drawings, as always and interesting conclusions about two styles of the piston.


Schnorchel mast is raised and lowered by the Schnorchel piston that is controlled by two hand wheels in the control room which activate a hydraulic mechanism. One hand-wheel is turned to "Open" for rising, when the Schnorchel is to be lowered, this wheel must be in the "Closed" position and the other wheel turned to "Open".


I will quote your post from another thread:
 
While doing some more research on the Schnorchel today, I came acoress this:

"Raising and lowering are controlled by hand wheels in the control room which activate a hydraulic mechanism.  One hand-wheel is turned to "Open" for raising; when the schnorchel is to be lowered, this wheel must be on "Closed" and the other wheel turned to "Open""

From the NAVY DEPARTMENT OFFICE OF THE CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS WASHINGTON Final Report - G/Serial 32 REPORT ON THE INTERROGATION OF SURVIVORS FROM U-575 SUNK 13 MARCH 1944 http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INT.htm (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-575INT.htm)

I was able to location the two 'Hand wheel' on U-995 ;D


(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5531/screen2gk.jpg)
(http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/2829/screen1lax.jpg)

http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id_id=5379 (http://www.kubische-panoramen.de/index.php?id_id=5379)
 


http://models.rokket.biz/index.php?topic=121.msg10505#msg10505


Actually, now I think, that valves you had identified are hull valves for the hydraulic oil lines. The control valve is the valve here:
(http://s16.postimg.org/5znwk5p4l/control_valve.jpg)
It's kind of change-over valve. It is also visible on the drawing provided by Tore (item no. 6, the hull valves - items no. 5).


Of course you are aware of the lockingpins in upright and lowered position.
Knowing your interest for details I shall point out the schnorkel position indicator placed in the forward controlroom, see photo and don`t be confused by the red drain cock on the voicepipe. The double indicatorpointers are very much like some pointers on boardvalves.



Tore, it seems you have great time in Africa :)
Great drawing anyway. The information about indicator pointers is also very interesting.
What is the heating connection (item no 11)?


--
Thanks, regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2014, 13:33
Great timing!

I was just starting to look for the hull opening for the hydraulic.

Maciek, have you seen this drawing from http://thebattleofatlanticmuseum.ca/page20/page20.html (http://thebattleofatlanticmuseum.ca/page20/page20.html).

The drawing seen accurate. I had estimated the pressure cylinder as 165 mm and accordingly to the drawing its 150 mm. Look like I am only out by 15 mm
 
Do you think the “St 20 · 2.5” is the diameter of the pipe and thickness?
(http://thebattleofatlanticmuseum.ca/page20/files/u-boat-snorkel-schematic-copy.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2014, 13:44
I just checked the hull opening for the hydraulic on U-955 and drawing, they are the same, between ribbing number 47 and 48 :)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 20 Feb , 2014, 13:54
Hi Maciek.
Just returned from Africa today and a bit off track after some 15 hours flight incl. waiting at airports. However before I returned I made a sketch showing my assumption of the reality matching the sketch. You are of course Right that the shape of the handwheels shown on the photo indicated pressure oil or even luboil. Any how the rising/lowering schnorchel handle is the "ringhandle" as you pointed out, the two boardvalves of the system having luboil handwheels are the supply- and return boardvalves of the system, the returnpipe has a shutoff valve ( lowering speed valve) joining the hydraulic returnpipe from the navigation periscope hoist, whereas the schnorchel supply shutoff ( lifting speed)valve having a wheel of drinkingwater or pressureoil ( hydraulic oil) has of course its own connection to the hydraulic pressure oil system. We find these mixing of handwheels quite often on the U 995. For the schnorchel system I guess this might be because the installation was done in March- April 1945 in Trondheim and the supply of parts were short and they used the closest available handwheels. The indicated heating cable I cannot remember as the U 995 was an artic operating boat it could be for deicing of the ringfloat, we never used such a deicing. My idea would be a wire connection for the radardetector.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 20 Feb , 2014, 14:00
Maciek, have you seen this drawing from http://thebattleofatlanticmuseum.ca/page20/page20.html (http://thebattleofatlanticmuseum.ca/page20/page20.html).
No, I haven't. Thanks for notifying.

Do you think the “St 20 · 2.5” is the diameter of the pipe and thickness?

Can be. St can stand for Stahl (Steel). Although I have met designation of diameter only as Leitungsdurchmesser innen and Leitungsdurchmesser außen. But it means nothing in this case. I do not know diameters of the hydraulic oil lines, but they can be estimated from photos.
 
I just checked the hull opening for the hydraulic on U-955 and drawing, they are the same, between ribbing number 47 and 48 :)


:)


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 20 Feb , 2014, 14:03


Just returned from Africa today and a bit off track after some 15 hours flight incl. waiting at airports. However before I returned I made a sketch showing my assumption of the reality matching the sketch. You are of course Right that the shape of the handwheels shown on the photo indicated pressure oil or even luboil. Any how the rising/lowering schnorchel handle is the "ringhandle" as you pointed out, the two boardvalves of the system having luboil handwheels are the supply- and return boardvalves of the system, the returnpipe has a shutoff valve ( lowering speed valve) joining the hydraulic returnpipe from the navigation periscope hoist, whereas the schnorchel supply shutoff ( lifting speed)valve having a wheel of drinkingwater or pressureoil ( hydraulic oil) has of course its own connection to the hydraulic pressure oil system. We find these mixing of handwheels quite often on the U 995. For the schnorchel system I guess this might be because the installation was done in March- April 1945 in Trondheim and the supply of parts were short and they used the closest available handwheels. The indicated heating cable I cannot remember as the U 995 was an artic operating boat it could be for deicing of the ringfloat, we never used such a deicing. My idea would be a wire connection for the radardetector.
Tore, thank you for your explanation and the sketch. It confirms my assumptions.
--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 20 Feb , 2014, 21:57
I was able to workout the openings for the hydraulic

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7390/12669528714_655280dfbd_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 23 Feb , 2014, 01:41
Simon
Schnorchelmast.
Looking at your  three positioning drawings of the schnorchel mast I believe you have the hydraulic connectingrod and the mastcrank a bit displaced. There are considerable forces to rise the mast and you want to have the rod and mastcrank at the optimal position for transferring the forces. Hence the connection should be 45 degrees on both side of the fulcrums vertical as I have tried to indicate on the sketch. The details of the German sketch are pretty much accurate.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 23 Feb , 2014, 04:09
Simon.
In order to try to explain a bit more about the mechanical physics behind my last comment, I have copied the drawing which I believe might be your source for the schnorchel crankposition. When you decompose the graphic of the forces on the connectingrod when the mast is almost upright you see that a substantial part of the liftingforce is wasted in sideforces which has to be taken up by side thrust on the pistonrod guides which you don`t want. On the 2x45 crank degrees to the vertical of the fulcrum you have some minor sideforces but substantial more shall be utilised as lifting force. I believe the  German sketch below is incorrect and the other German sketch in my previous post is correct.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 23 Feb , 2014, 12:09
Hi Tore

Thanks for the information angle!

I original never used any source for the schnorchel crank position, I do not think it was important.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/12726449143_058c3ca263_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/12726286145_27d092028e_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 23 Feb , 2014, 12:55
Simon.
 The two last end positions are just correct. I wonder about the greasecups though, did you find any pictures or drawings showing same?
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2014, 01:29
Simon.
 The two last end positions are just correct. I wonder about the greasecups though, did you find any pictures or drawings showing same?
Tore

Below you can see the grease cups :)

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3721/12741315695_df9af33946_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Feb , 2014, 01:50
 Very good, I didn`t remember and had an idea it could be grease nipples. ;D
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2014, 01:55
Very good, I didn`t remember and had an idea it could be grease nipples.
Tore

 These grease cups seem to be standard throughout the u-boat.

 Tore, was it a shock to the system coming from +30°C to -30°C ;)

Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Feb , 2014, 02:06
Simon
You bet, I am still looking for the remote control to turn off the airconditioning ;D Here we have up to 4 meters of snow in the mountains right now and people cannot find their cottages buried in the snow!
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Feb , 2014, 07:42
Simon
I fully realise there are limits to details however I could not resist adding a few more details to the schnorchel system as you see on the drawing below. The locking pin eyes are obvious. The hydraulic stuffingbox drain is important to prevent oilslick. The inboard drain valve is shown on the photo and the drain ends into the big drainbox on the  forward bulkhead port side of the controlroom. The mast position indicator I have mentioned before. I assume the connection from the hullrod to the mast could be teleflex as fitted on the mechanical indicators for the hydroplanes. The hull transmission is done by a steelrod moving up and down. The cable is indicated on the drawing as heatingcable, I cannot remember that but guess it could be for the radar detectionsystem as well.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2014, 19:50
Tore, what do you think the labels read?

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/12761253853_5fe0b801d7_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2014, 21:40
The hydraulic stuffing box drain and hydraulic lines added :)

Will add the other things in a few days.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5520/12763280094_45ebb6ed5d_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 24 Feb , 2014, 23:40
Simon.
Valve markings.
The left hydraulic boardvalve marking reads Schnorchelmast senken meaning schnorchelmast lowering. The left valvemarkings reads Druckøl Schnorchelmast heben meaning Pressureoil Schnorchelmast rising.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 24 Feb , 2014, 23:59
Simon.
Valve markings.
The left hydraulic boardvalve marking reads Schnorchelmast senken meaning schnorchelmast lowering. The left valvemarkings reads Druckøl Schnorchelmast heben meaning Pressureoil Schnorchelmast rising.
Tore

Thanks, I wanted to add the 'naming' plates to the drawing  ;D
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 25 Feb , 2014, 00:51
Simon
If you want to hook up the rest of the schnorchel hydraulic system which is connected to the IMO hyd. motor for the navigation periscope hoist I`ll make a sketch.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 25 Feb , 2014, 01:01
Simon
If you want to hook up the rest of the schnorchel hydraulic system which is connected to the IMO hyd. motor for the navigation periscope hoist I`ll make a sketch.
Tore

I would like to finish the schnorchel hydraulic system. I'm little busy so it maybe a little while before I get to it.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 25 Feb , 2014, 02:08
Simon.
OK in the meatime I shall try to make a sketch showing the system.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 25 Feb , 2014, 07:55
Simon.
Hydraulic system schnorchel.
The system is hooked up to the navigation periscopesystem as indicated on the sketch below. High pressure from the hydraulic system enters the schnorchel maneuvering slide via the stop/ speed throttling valve B. The slide allows the hyd. pressure oil to enter, via the boardvalve, the rising/lowering cylinder on either side as  required. The return oil from the appropriate side of the cylinder passes the boardvalve  to the schnorchel maneuvering slide and then to the stop/ speed throttling valve A before it enters the returnpipe from the periscope winch IMO motor. For some strange reason the B valve housing is painted red and the valve handwheel is removed on the valve shown on the photo from the U 995.
There are several sketches of the schnorchel system, in my opinion the sketch shown is closest to the real thing as on U 995. A and B valves are used to adjust the rising and lowering speed of the mast giving it a smooth homing in both endpositions, whereas the maneuvering slide distributes the pressure- return oil to the appropriate side of the rising/lowering piston.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Feb , 2014, 01:47
Simon
I fully realise there are limits to details however I could not resist adding a few more details to the schnorchel system as you see on the drawing below. The locking pin eyes are obvious. The hydraulic stuffingbox drain is important to prevent oilslick. The inboard drain valve is shown on the photo and the drain ends into the big drainbox on the  forward bulkhead port side of the controlroom. The mast position indicator I have mentioned before. I assume the connection from the hullrod to the mast could be teleflex as fitted on the mechanical indicators for the hydroplanes. The hull transmission is done by a steelrod moving up and down. The cable is indicated on the drawing as heatingcable, I cannot remember that but guess it could be for the radar detectionsystem as well.
Tore

Spend all afternoon looking for the heating cable and radar detection cable hull openings, could not found them in any photo’s of U-995  :'(
 
Will have it add it to the list of things to check on U-995 when I get there one day.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 26 Feb , 2014, 03:56
Simon.
I cannot find the cable hull openings either, but for sure the U 995 had a radar detection antenna on top of the schnorchel and some wires had to go into the pressurehull possibly near the sonar/ radioroom.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Feb , 2014, 20:20
Tore, do you have any idea what the horizontal locking mechanism for the schnorchel look like? Does it look like anything below?

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3729/12805936205_f73fb8927c_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 26 Feb , 2014, 23:41
Hi Simon!
Sign of life from Africa.
The usual high quality of the drawings,but I have a few remarks. If we return to the original U 995 version having the schnorkel installed in March -April 1945 you see the sketch of same below.
Of course you are aware of the lockingpins in upright and lowered position.
Knowing your interest for details I shall point out the schnorkel position indicator placed in the forward controlroom, see photo and don`t be confused by the red drain cock on the voicepipe. The double indicatorpointers are very much like some pointers on boardvalves.

I have still avoided the lions ;D
Tore

Tore, how does the schnorkel position indicator work and that does the mechanism look like?

Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 27 Feb , 2014, 00:45
Simon.
I cannot remember exactly but I have made a sketch indicating how I believe it is. When the mast is in upright position it needs a firm locking and a screwed pin is used operated by a handwheel in the controlroom. In downright position you just lock it in the horizontal position by a lever in the wardroom. You see photos of both the handwheel and the lever on the sketch below.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2014, 01:18
Simon.
I cannot remember exactly but I have made a sketch indicating how I believe it is. When the mast is in upright position it needs a firm locking and a screwed pin is used operated by a handwheel in the controlroom. In downright position you just lock it in the horizontal position by a lever in the wardroom. You see photos of both the handwheel and the lever on the sketch below.
Tore

Thanks, Tore.

I initially thought the "downright position" mechanism would look the way you have sketched it. But if you look at U-766 from 1961 (French submarine Laubie - S610) and U-325 during September 1943 you can see a large flat tab with an opening for a pin.
 
Did you think U-766 and U-325 is an original German deigns and U-995 is an updated Norwegian Navy deign?
 
To me the U-995 deign seen the must simple and better deign.

(http://www.u-boote.fr/images/laubie2.jpg)
U-766

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/12809664763_daf3486eb0_o.jpg)
U-325
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 27 Feb , 2014, 02:09
Simon.
Again I cannot remember accurately the indicator design, but i made a sketch how I assume it could be.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 27 Feb , 2014, 02:17
Simon.
I guess the U 995 lockingpin execution is the original and probably the latest design ( installed March-April 1945), but as you know from previous discussions there are various execution particulary the rodconnection to the upper lockingpin.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: SnakeDoc on 27 Feb , 2014, 06:26
Hi Gentlemen,


Simon, Schnorchel on Laubie was installed in the middle of 1948. I believe, that it was taken from German supplies, which left in the French naval bases after war, so I believe, it was rather late version. I have attached some pictures of Laubie with Schnorchel. In this time, the shape of the conning tower was changed - from the Turmumbau IV configuration, French removed the after, lower platform.


Your second pictures present U-235 in October 1943, in Germaniaweft (see UAK symbol on the connnig tower). Moreover, U-325 was launched in March 1944, so she could not have installed Schnorchel in November 1943.
Schnorchel installed on U-235 was one of the earliest versions - was lowered and risen by means of cable winch.


--
Regards
Maciek
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 27 Feb , 2014, 07:51
Simon.
Schnorchel lockingpin.
May be the construction require a more detailed explanation. In upright position  the upper part of the rod is threaded and goes into the the lockingpin lowerpart having a bore with internal threads. When the rod rotates it moves the lockingpin up and down. It does not rotates because either the pin is square or in case of a round pin it has a pin in a slot, I don`t know which alt. On the enclosed photo of KNM Kya ex U 926 it seems that the lockingpin is located inside the homing fork, contrary to the German drawing.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 27 Feb , 2014, 08:14
Simon.
Schnorchel position indicator.
I did not like my previous assumption so much as I would assume a rotating rod would be more appropriate. In this case if you follow the German practise you could end up with a solution  indicated on the drawing below. The indicator is pretty much the same as the indicator on some important valves, the double pointer on the travellingnut prevent same to rotate hence the pointer goes up and down according to the mastposition. I cannot guaranty that this solution is the original execution at this point remains  an intelligent guessing as so many times before.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 27 Feb , 2014, 08:25
Simon.
Locking pin downright postion.
If you look at the handlearm and guide in the wardroom you shall notice there are holes drilled in the handle and the guide, they are holes for a securingpin to lock the handle in position.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2014, 12:19
Simon.
Schnorchel position indicator.
I did not like my previous assumption so much as I would assume a rotating rod would be more appropriate. In this case if you follow the German practise you could end up with a solution  indicated on the drawing below. The indicator is pretty much the same as the indicator on some important valves, the double pointer on the travellingnut prevent same to rotate hence the pointer goes up and down according to the mastposition. I cannot guaranty that this solution is the original execution at this point remains  an intelligent guessing as so many times before.
Tore

Tore, the green spot is the location for the hull opening for the Schnorchel position indicator.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7304/12819544495_657cb6f26b_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 27 Feb , 2014, 12:28
Simon.
Final solution to the upright lockingpin.
Having studied the U 968 photo I believe I have found the final design. The homingfork has the upper hole and it is square, the lower fixingpoint is bolted to the common supportplate. The working is pretty much as explained before and the pin is square which prevent it from turning with the threaded rodend. I have tried to make a sketch referring to the photo.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2014, 12:41
Simon.
I guess the U 995 lockingpin execution is the original and probably the latest design ( installed March-April 1945), but as you know from previous discussions there are various execution particulary the rodconnection to the upper lockingpin.
Tore

I just found two more photo's in Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp VII C with the "large flat tab" with an opening for a pin

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3776/12819889965_d4df4b444e_o.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7400/12819889185_3506392560_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2014, 12:47
Simon.
Schnorchel position indicator.
I did not like my previous assumption so much as I would assume a rotating rod would be more appropriate. In this case if you follow the German practise you could end up with a solution  indicated on the drawing below. The indicator is pretty much the same as the indicator on some important valves, the double pointer on the travellingnut prevent same to rotate hence the pointer goes up and down according to the mastposition. I cannot guaranty that this solution is the original execution at this point remains  an intelligent guessing as so many times before.
Tore

Tore, here the solution for the Schnorchel position indicator on the Type IX from Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp IX C

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3729/12820431954_74c6c4675e_o.jpg)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 27 Feb , 2014, 15:33
Hi Tore

Was thinking about different ways to gear the Schnorchel position indicator. What do you think about this idea?

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3766/12822892023_ec861c4494_o.jpg)

(http://www.globalspec.com/ImageRepository/LearnMore/20121/gear-helical25169ee0283a744c7a29ea2558db48565.png)
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 28 Feb , 2014, 00:24
Simon.
It works but I am afraid it is an expensive way of doing it and requires complicated milling. At the end of WW2 I believe the germans would go for a simpler solution. I have been pondering upon this detail further and further studies of the bad photo of the internal indicator rod does not reveal any threads which is needed for a travelling pointernut. Thus I assume the rotating rod theory even if would be a technical good solution might be abandoned. :-[ Back to the drawingboard. I am reintroducing my first idea, teleflex, as used for the mechanical indicators of the hydroplanes. It is relatively simple and cheap. On the sketch below you see it is some strange bends which might support the theory. At the  rod connectingpoint it got to be a 90 degrees angleguide though in order to have a vertical pull/ push movement of the rod. These guides are standard teleflex equipment. By studying the teleflex transmission of the hydroplane indicators we might find a possible solution for the relative simple schnorchel indicator. ;)
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 28 Feb , 2014, 01:09
Here are all the different version of the 3.7cm Flak M42U found on Type VIIC's

3.7cm Flak M42U

The 3.7cm Flak M42U was the marine version of the 3.7cm Flak used by the Kriegsmarine on Type VII and Type IX U-boats. The improvement was base on the earlier 3.7cm Flak SK C/30 developed by Rheinmetall. The 3.7cm Flak M42U used several types of mounts and entered service in autumn 1943.

LM 42U Mount
The LM 42U mount was developed specifically for the 3.7cm Flak M42U. It was man by a 3 man crew, with a fourth man, the loader.

LM 43U Mount
The LM 43U mount was the final deign of mount used on U-boats. It further improvement on the LM 42U. The LM 43U was only known to be installed on three U-boats (U-1171, U-1305 and U-1306).

DLM 42U Mount
The twin mount was base on the  design, in which the 3.7cm Flak M42U guns were mounted side by side.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/12829276405_84bf37a859_o.png)
Fig. 1. A Single 3.7cm Flak M42U gun on the LM 42U mount.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7310/12577629344_4067f51e3c_o.png)
Fig. 2. A Single 3.7cm Flak M42U gun on the LM 43U mount.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/12829688274_2eb6870fd3_o.png)
Fig. 3. A Twin 3.7cm Flak M42U guns on the DLM 42U mount.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 28 Feb , 2014, 16:07
I don't know anything about this specifically, so I can only comment in general, which might be useless!

Some related info. The US Gatos were well engineered. Modern volunteers rebuilt a periscope on the Cobia a few years ago. They couldn't understand some of the design and thought it was over-engineered. UNTIL they went to put it back together, and all the awkward, impossible-ness of the procedure was made easy by the design! The volunteers went "AH! these 1930s + 40s guys knew what they were doing!"

The other bit: it's almost impossible to second guess the past. Why would people do something in a certain way? "of course they wouldn't!" we say, but then we don't have their world view. We don't cover up in the heat, but the people of the 1600s seem to have (from paintings and writings). They thought layers kept them cool, and that the air was filled with disease. Different logic. So on one hand these guys might not have put effort into complex gearing, but on the other, it might have seemed perfectly natural, even with limited resources. After all, Germany was putting  lot of effort into almost science fiction weapons, even though it was too late...

Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 01 Mar , 2014, 00:31
Very wise words. When we try to figure out why a VIIC was equipped like this or that, we often forget the situation in Germany the last years of WW2. The VIIC technology is pretty much from the 1920 and 1930 years. In contradiction to f.i. the RN which in the 30 ties had their subs equipped with telemotor operated vents and hydroplanes, the germans still used mechanical transmission, rods and links.The VIIC was the workhorse based on wellproven prewar technology. I remember in 1943-1944 as a boy in an occupied country, the  germans where desperate in getting rawmaterial, they confiscated all our copper- and nickelcoins, all the brass items on subwaycars,trams and railwaycars like handles, supportrods, ashtrays etc. The brass and nickel items were remelted as a substitute we got steel and zinc coins, wooden supportrods etc. After Stalingrad, end 42 beginning 43, the families had to supply the German military with their private rubberboots, blankets and rucksacs. In the years of the schnorchel installation, the shipyards and factories were heavily bombed and destroyed, making it pretty difficult to get the proper parts and material for the conversion. It is easy to forget the prevailing circumstances when you wonder why the German did it the way they did and why they did not use copper, bronze and brass in the piping.
Tore 
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 01 Mar , 2014, 08:01
Simon.
I have spent some time studying the possible solution to the Schnorchelmast indicator. The drawings available does not give much information, but they indicates rodlink transmission even if some are overdimensioned. I have checked the indicator for the ballast vents and the Kingstons on U 995, to my astonishment you could not see any threads on indicator spindles, I guess they might be heavily painted so the threads do not show up on a bad photo.  However I guess for the indicator travel shown on the photo a direct 90 degrees mast movement at the rooth of the mast  hardly gives a direct link transmission sufficient turning of  the spindle to create  such travel.If we stick to the rotating theory, we have to amplify the turns from 90 degrees to at least 2 or 3 x 360 degrees. At a direct pull push movement it would be possible to obtain the adequat movement I guess. These are just some thougths around the problems to be solved.  May be we should wait and see if some better documentation pops up before ending up with the final solution.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 02 Mar , 2014, 00:16
Hi Tore

I was taking another look at the Schnorchel mast indicator and I noted that a ¼ of the circumference of the Schnorchel pipe was the same amount of movement for the indicated bar (light blue) so this made me think:
 
When the Schnorchel mast is down the Green bar (which is Attached to the Schnorchel pipe) is moved forward, pushing a cable (purple) forward that forces the indicated arrow down.
When the Schnorchel mast is up, the green bar is pull back, pulling the cable (purple) back and pulling the indicated arrow back up.
 
The cable (purple) would be fed into a bend of a pipe to stop the cable creasing.

What do you think?

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7333/12871974655_0a4c4dccf7_o.jpg)
Down

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/12872066313_479cc7a6bd_o.jpg)
Up
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 02 Mar , 2014, 02:15
Simon.
This was my first idea ( teleflex) as well, and I believe you could even get the guide and other components as a standard from teleflex as used on the hydroplanes mechanical indicators. There is one problem as the teleflex cable runs in a sleeve which is not pressure / waterthight it creates a problem for the pressurehull stuffingbox and the indicator rod has to end outside the pressurehull to overcome this problem. By that you introduce  a higher resistance which I am not sure a teleflex pushmovement can overcome.
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: Rokket on 03 Mar , 2014, 04:54
Tore - wow, I wish I could take you out for a beer! You lived it. Thanks so much for sharing with us!
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 03 Mar , 2014, 23:32
Simon.
Schnorchel mast indicator.
I guess we should find the simplest solution which would be pull/push rods. Below I have indicated such a system. I have estimated the vertical movement of the indicator to be some 15-20 cm (I am not sure), this would require the connection point to the mast to be close to the root of the mast as the rodlink should be as straight as possible. Thus the hullpassage would be fairly close to the fulcrum of the mast. Unfortunately this is slightly different from what is indicated on the systemsketch however there are several other details on the sketch which are not correct as well. On the U 995 photo the indicator rod enters the hull (controlroom) in the middle between frame 60 and 61 as far as I can see and I don`t know how this matches the position of the fulcrum, you have probably some details on this. This is my best assumption for you drawing of the indicator right now. ;)
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: falo on 03 Mar , 2014, 23:50

Don't know if this technical drawing is already on your HD. Grabbed this drawing from an unknown internet site years ago. Just remembering that the attached snorkel-drawings are for a type nine boat.

Falo
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: tore on 04 Mar , 2014, 00:13
Falo.
It is a very good drawing, but as you say it is showing the IX system which is different from the VIICs. Main difference are the cranks downwards and the indicator (rotating) and possibly the tranmission are different .
Tore
Title: Re: VIIC/41 - Schematices drawing
Post by: NZSnowman on 04 Mar , 2014, 00:43
Simon.
Schnorchel mast indicator.
I guess we should find the simplest solution which would be pull/push rods. Below I have indicated such a system. I have estimated the vertical movement of the indicator to be some 15-20 cm (I am not sure), this would require the connection point to the mast to be close to the root of the mast as the rodlink should be as straight as possible. Thus the hullpassage would be fairly close to the fulcrum of the mast. Unfortunately this is slightly different from what is indicated on the systemsketch however