Author Topic: Tores mailbox IX C and IX C/40 operational and technical details  (Read 3962 times)

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Offline tore

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Don. I have read your IXC prologue and have a few remarks.
 Page XII I guess it would be appropriate to describe the attack periscope only to be used in the tower as fully hydraulic operated both raising and lowering as well as rotating, allowing the CO to sit for accurate observation. At the time of the WW2 this was a unique design.May be an image of the attack periscope would be helpful.
Page XV  When showing the floodvalves, I guess if you stick to the RN English you may use Kingstons for the flood valves.
Page XIX You normally fill the regulating tanks to the COs order to fulfill his request as to the buoyancy at the required depth. For inst. some times he would like it a bit heavy at periscope depth when you have a rough swell to make it a bit better for the hydroplane operators to holde the submarine at periscope depth.
Page XX you are able to use hp air at 25 atu blowing the Qs, this does not mean you are using full pressure all the time, it all depend on circumstances and you always keep an eye on the air consumption.
Page XXI Overpressure inside the pressure hull is the result of many cases like inside venting and leakages from a number of valve connections. The overpressure upset all the manometers as well as the boiling temperatures and as such a nuisance.
Sorry for the late answer as my internetconnection is too slow, I hope to get it better next month.
Tore

Offline Bob Tomlin

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Hello Mr Tore, Don,


Many apologies as I feel as though I'm interrupting two very knowledgeable gentlemen in mid conversation here, but I did wonder if this might be the best place for a layman such as myself to perhaps get an answer to a technical question on a Type IXC/40 please?



I'm modelling a IXC/40 (U-889) at the moment and I'd like to ask about the rectangular diesel outlet on the sides of the hull please.
This is quite a large aperture on the model and so I wanted to put some sort of construction in the space behind it to represent something of what should be there (the visible bit anyway).
I was thinking initially that this would be a sort of rectangular box type duct?


I've been reading that passage regarding the exhaust that mentions mufflers, water jacketing, spark arrestor chamber, valves, etc. but can't find any plans or good photos for me to make some sense of it all.
I've seen some shots taken looking down on the salvaged U-534 which show some structure as viewed from above, but this doesn't tell me what's happening on the undersides.
I came across this piece of film of the U-889 which shows water draining from the twin drainage holes below the exhaust outlet (particularly at the 00.40 point into the film), but not much draining out of the actual exhaust outlet itself. I then wondered whether or not there might be a drainage channel which would be in the 'floor' of any 'box type exhaust ducting' in order to either allow for maximising drainage from there?
http://footage.framepool.com/en/shot/678512935-corvette-ship-royal-canadian-navy-surrendering-naval-warfare

A lot of the structure has disintegrated on the U-534, (which I've been examining lately), the only small bits of structure that are left in the aperture being two small 'ribs' at one third intervals on the top edge of the aperture.
I've attached a very rough sketch to indicate the area I'm talking about (as I'm very likely using all the incorrect terms for parts). It's only representational and rough of course, so nothing's to exact scale.


Any help on what might be in there or suggestions on where I could find the answers would be very much appreciated please. Thank you.
I'm going down to the national archives at kew in a couple of weeks so could pull out a file if you happen to know if the information might be in one.




« Last Edit: 20 Sep , 2016, 06:14 by Bob Tomlin »

Offline SnakeDoc

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Hi Gentlemen,

welcome back after two month, it is good to see so many new posts and discussions.

I got some interesting photos of U-505... I am curious about the Dive Plane control stations; it looks like the two manual control wheels are tied together by a sprocket and chain.  Would that mean that if there was a power failure, then both dive planes would move in the same direction (sort of parallel to each other)? what do you thing?

It looks indeed as the two manual hydroplane controlwheels are interconnected by chaindrive, I never saw it before. I assume the electrical push button system is unaltered and thus the dual operated system is an emergency system. Generally the forward hydroplanes are used for depthcontrol (pitch) and the aft hydroplanes for leveling, on the VIICs. This system required two operators. todays submarines combines the two, thus reducing the manning.
I am astonish to see that the IXCs emergency system of the 1940 years already got a rude version of it. The flexibility of the two man operation is gone however, but I assume a possible porpoising effect as well, interesting.

Regarding the above quote, I recommend the following fragment of the type IXC study:

Quote
It is of interest here to note that later vessels if the type have a third plane control station in the control room and a manual coupling and chain connection between the bow and stern plane handwheels.  These are provided to permit the following type of operation:   
    
If there is a casualty to the electric control of either the bow or stern planes, the two hand wheels can be tied together so that two men can simultaneously control the affected planes in hand.  The diving officer connects the third pair of planes and operates them electrically.



--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Maciek.
Welcolme back, we missed you. Hope everything is OK and am looking forward to your participation in the discussion especially on the IXC which I have no experience.
Tore

Offline tore

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Bob.
I guess you have a pretty good idea about the spark arrestor arrangement having done some research on your own hand. I am not so conversant with the IXC but I guess the IXC followed pretty much the development of the VIIC. Which has a number of alternative solutions to the exhaust outlet. The arrangement is a dry silencer having a coolingwater jacket with an outlet to the compensating tank in the tower  and from this tank overboard. The spark arrestor being the last item in the system was in the beginning a wet type meaning the exhaust gases were led down under the seawater before the outlet. I don`t think it was any connecting pipe to the water jacket on the silencer, thus somehow baffle plates led the exhaust down below the sea surface and then via the water up through the slit in the casing. The two floodgates below was probably at the top level of the water in the spark arrestor hence only occasionally draining water as the water level changed. Later the system was changed and the sparkarrestor was removed and the exhaustpipe ended under the sealevel. Again this is the VIIC development but I assume the same development took place with the IXC as well. May be my image below can be of some help.

Tore
« Last Edit: 21 Sep , 2016, 13:31 by tore »

Offline Bob Tomlin

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Hello Mr Tore,


Thank you very much for that information. I'd read about the spark arrestor in that study document from the Canadian Navy but I wasn't sure how it worked.
It mentions keeping a water trap at the same level. Am I right in thinking this principle to be a similar sort of thing to a toilet 'U-bend' then, with the exhaust gases having to pass through this water?
As I mentioned I'm going down to the National Archives to have a look through some files (one is titled:- 'U-boats: Diesel engines') so they may give more answers if they go into exhausts.


A lot of the current U-534 internals have corroded away, unfortunately and the port diesel exhaust has been plated over (the starboard one isn't accessible for close inspection) but I had a look in to see what clues there might have been to this construction and I took this shot. It might be my eyes of course but there appears to me to be a 'curving plate' which looks as though it might meet the position of the lower edge of the exhaust aperture. It might well be some other structure that has simply fallen down due to corrosion, but I did wonder if this could be part of the construction that constitutes the spark arrestor chamber (i.e. a descending baffle leading down to this water level)? ...or not.







Thank you again,
Bob.




Offline Don Prince

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Hi Maciek,


Good to see you again my friend...  What does it mean "The diving officer connects a third set of planes and operates them electrically."


A third set of planes - or - a third set of BBC controllers (1 or 2)? What and where is this located... I believe the dual rudder has a BBC controller in the control room, the tower, and a manual hand wheel in the aft torpedo room.
           
Regards,
Don_
A man’s got to know his limitations…
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline Don Prince

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Hi Maciek,


I have been attempting to understand the relationship between the bow buoyancy tank and MBT 1...  This is what I came up with looking at the 1 dimensional drawings.  This is my 3-Dimensional view; what do you think?


Regards,
Don_
« Last Edit: 22 Sep , 2016, 00:45 by Don Prince »
A man’s got to know his limitations…
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline tore

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Don.
Interesting and useful!
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Hi Don,


What does it mean "The diving officer connects a third set of planes and operates them electrically."


A third set of planes - or - a third set of BBC controllers (1 or 2)? What and where is this located... I believe the dual rudder has a BBC controller in the control room, the tower, and a manual hand wheel in the aft torpedo room.


take a look at the "Schaltbild der Tiefenruderanlage" in the Skizzenbuch fur das Machinenpersonal IXC (Band E Allgemeine E Anlagen).


You can see there two standard electrical BBC controllers (for forward and aft diving planes), and between them, the third, dual BBC controller, which could be connected (by means of the integrated change-over switch) either to forward or to aft diving planes driving motor.


I could not locate this third controller on any available photo of the type IXC control room. From the wiring diagram, it seems that it was fixed connected (not by means of the socket and plug), and as so, it should be somehow attached to the other equipment or hull.


Diving planes controllers (electrical and mechanical) were located in the control room only (as in control room only were located the respective instruments: inclinometers, Papenberg depth-meters, depth-gauges).


Regarding the main rudder, the standard helmsman station was in the conning tower, where the BBC controller was located. This controller was detachable and connected by means of the flexible wire and plug and socket. After detaching, it could be moved to the bridge, and during the harbor maneuvers, the boat could be steered from there.


The second (backup) control station was located in the control room, where the fixed BBC controller was located (at the forward bulkhead of the control room). It was intended to use, when the conning tower was damaged (i.e. flooded). In the later period of war, on the Schnorchel boats, it was used as a primary control station.


Some time ago, Tore described the reasons of the change, and his experiences regarding that arrangement. If remember correctly, it was related with the better communication between all three men controlling the planes (that is main rudder, and two sets of diving planes), which was especially important during Schnorcheling.


The emergency, manual control station was in the aft torpedo room.




--
Regards
Maciek

Offline SnakeDoc

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Hi Don,

I have been attempting to understand the relationship between the bow buoyancy tank and MBT 1...  This is what I came up with looking at the 1 dimensional drawings.  This is my 3-Dimensional view; what do you think?


I'm not sure about this top part protruding from the ballast tank (btw. I believe you meant MBT 8 ). I think, that in this area were located anchor windlass with its driving gear and capstan gear. I think, that all space at the level of the bow buoyancy tank, further aft, was just free-flooding space under upper-deck.


--
Regards
Maciek

Offline Don Prince

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Hi Maciek,


You know - I should NOT attempt to multitask when doing drawings...  The label for the buoyancy tank was WRONG!!!  Here is the corrected version and the print I got it from.


Regards,
Don_


A man’s got to know his limitations…
Harry Callahan, SFPD

Offline SnakeDoc

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Hi Don,

I could not locate this third controller on any available photo of the type IXC control room. From the wiring diagram, it seems that it was fixed connected (not by means of the socket and plug), and as so, it should be somehow attached to the other equipment or hull.


At the beginning of the type IXC Design Study you can see the photo:





On two upper photos, near the antenna shaft, there is visible something like electrical controller, I guess, it is third diving planes controller we were looking for.


--
Regards
Maciek

Offline tore

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Maciek.
Absolutely, I never saw it before, we did not have this arrangement on the VIIC . In fact the construction reminds me of the of the hydraulic ( oleosystem) actuators for the hydroplanes of RN submarines.
Tore

Offline SnakeDoc

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Hi Don,

You know - I should NOT attempt to multitask when doing drawings...  The label for the buoyancy tank was WRONG!!!  Here is the corrected version and the print I got it from.


I think it looks OK.


--
Regards
Maciek