1/72 Revell Type VIIC/41

[TristanR]

Thanks SG I had not seen those images yet.  Very useful thankyou.  Looking at them it seems that there is a section where the saddle tanks blend directly into the pressure hull around the conning tower, but both fore and aft the sadle tanks appear to have a step.  I have one more hull revision to do, so I will incorporate those steps I think.  Thanks again!

Bill, Is U-601 a /41boat? I can't quite tell if the deck is planked or slotted, but it does seem to have the dual wintergartens of the /41 boats...  Were there some none /41 boats that had /41 style wintergartens?  It is certainly artic though!

[billp51d]

TristanR..
     Here is a list of boats from u-boat.net assigned to arctic waters..
     May be of some help...
   
     http://uboat.net/flotillas/11flo.htm
 
    Bill

TristanR....  Actually U-601 was only a "Type C", but if you look at the list
                 in the link, I'm sure you can find a Type '41..
                 I just sent the photo of the "deceased bear" as interesting..
Bill

[dougie47]

Hello Tristan and Bill,
In the photos of U 601 the boat has a slotted deck and a Turm II, both of which make it unsuitable for your build.
You might consider U 278. Although it was a VIIC (not a VIIC/41) it did have a planked deck, Atlantic bow and Turm IV tower just like the model kit you are using. It served in the Arctic, having what looks like Dunkelgrau 51 on the upper hull and also Dunkelgrau 51 on the lower half of the tower. On the upper half of the tower (above the spray deflector) it looks like white.
Cheers,
Dougie

[SG]

Looking at them it seems that there is a section where the saddle tanks blend directly into the pressure hull around the conning tower, but both fore and aft the sadle tanks appear to have a step.

Indeed!


PS:  U 278 heading to Narvik to surrender, 1945
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/U-278_without_B-24_Liberator.jpg

[TristanR]

Thanks for in the info guys, so far I have been looking just at /41 boats on places like uboats.net, but I am intrigued by U-278, which is listed as just a viic boat.  Are you saying it's visually identical to the /41 from a model point of view?
And also, are there any lists of other viic boats that have the same /41 upgrades? 

[TristanR]

Version 6...Main difference is that I added more support to the saddle tanks.  While I was at it, I added some slots to the bulkhead pieces so you can slide the styrene sheets in place that will skin the top surface, you'll see further down.

I did a soldering!  for no reason other than I wanted to try it, I soldered a rod onto these tube door PEs.

As I added more and more support to the pressure hull, the torpedo tube's height has risen and risen, I was having to push the whole thing down into the hull. I eventually lowered the whole front end 6mm untill it sat right.  Took a lot of boring adjustments tht I am glad to have behind me.  I added the PE tube doors in the open position, even though the outer doors will cover them.



I started looking at skinning the pressure hull, here with 0.1mm styrene, this will not be thick enough for the real thing. For that I will use 0.5mm that will be more rigid.  You can see the slots that along the sides that holds it in place over the bulkheads.

The 0.5mm styrene needs forming, otherwise, it just wants to return to flat styrene, and looks bad.So here I found a cardboard tube (that airbrush booth filter were delivered in) which happens to be the same diameter as the pressure hull. I'm cutting the correct sized piece then taping it to the tube. Then it's in the oven for 10 mins at 275 degrees F.
Took a few goes, an important step is to let the styrene cool completely before un-taping it.  If you take it off as soon as it comes out the oven it's still half liquid and bends all over the place.A side benefit is that you get the underlying texture of the tube, I can always sand it down, it's similar to the work I did on the hull and might weather well.
This is the result so far.  I really hope to stick the bloomin' hulls together soon.

I found this image of - I think U-505 - surrendering, it's one of the few colour photos around of a uboat, so I thought I'd try and think about emulating it on this boat as a possible paint scheme.  Maybe this is a bit too much.

[dougie47]

Hi Tristan,
 
Yes, that is right, from a modelling point of view the VIIC and VIIC/41 will look the same.
 
It has long been thought that the Atlantic bow was exclusive to VIIC/41s but there are several photos which prove this is not the case. The link to the photo of U 278 posted by SG is a good example. The boat is a VIIC but has the Atlantic bow.
 
Your model will have a planked deck and Atlantic bow. For the discussion below the dates below are the launching dates. The colour photo below is very useful because it shows all four boats with different arrangements. Taken in Hammerfest on the 30th July 1944, it shows - from right to left - U 997, U 278, U 711 and U 362.
 

 
Firstly, the Atlantic bow. The Atlantic bow is on U 711, launched on 25/06/42. It is not on U 362, launched on 21/10/42. So we can see that it was implemented on launched boats as early as June 1942 but in boats launched in other shipyards the Atlantic bow had yet to be implemented by October 1942. It probably was implemented on all launched boats by around December 1942.
 
Secondly, the planked deck. The slotted deck is on U 711, launched on 25/06/42. The planked deck is on U 362, launched on 21/10/42. From other photos it appears the changeover from slotted to planked took place around the autumn of 1942.
 
Note: In the photo U 362 has planked deck and no Atlantic bow. U 711 has the slotted deck but does have the Altantic bow. Very confusing, I know, but this illustrates that the bow and deck changeovers were completely independent of each other.
 
Conclusion - To conclude, I reckon you should choose a boat (either VIIC or VIIC/41) launched in December 1942 or later so you can be sure it had both the Atlantic bow and planked deck.
 
Schnorchel - We can't forget that your model will have the snort. This is an additional complication. If you have a look at the photo above, taken on 30/07/44, U 278 doesn't have the snort yet. It was fitted at a later date (probably soon afterwards) but may not have retained the camo scheme above.
 
U 997 is in the configuration you want and did serve in the Arctic. You can also be sure of the colour scheme from the photo above so you might consider this boat for your model.
 
Regarding colours, the photo of U 805 after surrender shows extensive rusting, which you don't tend to see on VIICs.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[TristanR]

Thanks Dougie, for taking the time to explain this,  unfortunatly I have more questions!
Regarding the Snorkel, I see some boats with extra piping around the Conning tower that the snorkel plugs into.  There is also a Pipe that is just above deck level on the starboard side, that is probably for the exhaust? 

It would seem to me that the exposed piping would suggest a retro-fitted snorkel, whereas the ones without piping (like u-995) were more sophisticated, factory fitted snorkels which had the piping under the deck, is there any evidence that this is the case?

I would like to have the exposed piped snorkel, U-1023 seems to have this setup.

U-997 could be an option too, but I don't think it had a piped snorkel, and I don't want an all dark gray scheme... Isuppose I could chip the dark grey away exposing an older arctic scheme underneath? 


Did they ever do this, or was all the old paint removed before the new paint was applied?

Sorry for more questions!  Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to reply, I bet you've all answered these questions many times on here...

[dougie47]

Hi Tristan,
 
More questions is fine, happy to help if I can.
 
There are folks on here who are more knowledgeable on the snort than me. I thought that the piping on the starboard side of the deck was on all VIICs and VIICs with the snort. Can anybody else identify a boat with a snort but no piping on the starboard side?
 
I know there is U 995 which presently does not have the piping. However, I think the piping was there at the end of her Norwegian service. I presume that when the deck of U 995 was replaced (around 1970 or so?) they did not replace the external piping on the starboard side.
 
Also of note is that U 995 was launched without a snort but I am not sure when U 995 got the snort.
 
U 997 got the snort in March 1945 and would, I think, almost certainly have had the pipe on the deck. The old paint wasn't removed so you could chip away the dark grey to expose lighter grey underneath. You wouldn't want to overdo it though (the towers of VIICs did not peel away as badly as the IXs).
 
I do have one possibility for you. U 1058 had a weathered medium grey upper hull but had what looks like a white tower. The issue here is you would have to change the magnetic compass fairing at the front of your tower to the stand alone Askania type.
 
Cheers,
 
Dougie

[NZSnowman]

Regarding the Snorkel, I see some boats with extra piping around the Conning tower that the snorkel plugs into.  There is also a Pipe that is just above deck level on the starboard side, that is probably for the exhaust? 

It would seem to me that the exposed piping would suggest a retro-fitted snorkel, whereas the ones without piping (like u-995) were more sophisticated, factory fitted snorkels which had the piping under the deck, is there any evidence that this is the case?

The Schnorchel exhaust outlet pipe is located between the Exhaust Gas Blowing manifold and carries the exhaust gases to the Schnorchel hinge arrangement. This section of pipe follows the conning tower casting for the most part below the decking, though a small section is found above  the deck next to the starboard side of the conning tower casting. This section above deck is approximately 1,900 millimetres (6 ft 3 in) in length and the pipe has a diameter approximately 150 millimetres (5.9 in).

The explanation why this section of the piping is found about the deck is that it was necessary to take the pipe over the Exhaust Gas Blowing manifold which is also located in the same area next to the Conning Tower casting.

There has been some uncertainly if this section of pipe above deck is found on all Type VIIC's. It is believe to be absent on some Type VIIC's with a Schnorchel. My research indicates that this section of piping is found on all Type VIIC's with a Schnorchel. This uncertainly is probably due to U-995 (Type VIIC/41) as in its current configuration this pipe is absent. Nevertheless, it can be seen in its original configuration on page 147 of U 995: Das Boot von dem Marine-Ehrenmal in Laboe by Eckard Wetzel. Most plans or drawings illustrate this section of piping very poorly and it is very easily missed or misinterpret.

[dougie47]

Hello Simon,

Nice top hear from you and hope all is good with you.

Many thanks for all the info. Superb drawings as always.

Cheers,

Dougie

[TristanR]

Thanks Dougie, I take you point on the heavily chipped paint being more of a IX thing, I shall likely move away from that idea (I'm not sure I could pull it off anyway!), besides paint is a long way off at the rate I'm going...

Many thanks for the information on the snort piping, NZSnowman. I have been enjoying your project of schematics, I am considering whether to try an include all the plumbing work on the pressure hull, which is now very close to installation.  Once installed I still have to skin the saddle tanks before I can do anything else.  I left the styrene in the oven for a bit too long which left me with an interesting texture, sort of like cast metal.









So I think I'm understanding that the exposed starboard exhasut pipe should be present on all snorkelled U-boats, but after a look around, the port intake pipe, as seen on the middle boat here (u-1058) seem to be less consistant in it's appearances, I wasn't able to find a good explanation of this.





Thanks for all the help guys!

[NZSnowman]

The Schnorchel air inlet piping is location on the port side of the Type VII's and carries clean air to the Main Air Inlet Trunk line. The Schnorchel air inlet piping either runs outside of the conning tower casing (STYLE 2) or found under the decking (STYLE 3).

STYLE 2 - ABOVE  DECK
This is the most common style that is found in the wartime photographs. This style was installed up to autumn 1944. The Schnorchel mast was fixed with a half height pressure flange. From the pressure flange the air intake pipe was lay out under the spray deflector along the outside of the port side of the conning tower.



STYLE 3 - BELOW  DECK
This was the final design for the air inlet pipe, and in this design we see the majority of piping under the decking. The inlet is now part of the schnorchel hinge arrangement. The pipe exits the port side of the schnorchel hinge arrangement with a section of curved pipe extending past the side wall of the deck approximately 220 millimetres (8.7 in). An opening in the side decking cast has been cut out 700 millimetres (2 ft 4 in) × 320 millimetres (1 ft 1 in) to enable for the bend. The remainder of the air inlet pipe weaves around the drive shaft for the radar aerial and the piping for the blowing of Tank 2 & 4.

[TristanR]

Thanks Snowman, that's very useful, I feel like I have a very good idea of how this all works now. 
[/size]
I was hoping to share some pictures of a hull that is glued together, but instead here's more work on the pressure hull area.

Originally I had expected to continue the saddle tanks curvature inwards into the pressure deck.  So I cut out these shaped strips to cover the inner saddle tank tops.






After some cutting and fitting, I made the changes to incorparate the step in between the saddle tanks and the pressure hull. As far as I can tell this is not far off.  Once it's all stuck in a bit of filler should tidy it all up nicely.




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The toped tubes have been a constant pain.  Somewhere the inner hull is getting forced up but some thing I couldn't find for ages. This would force the tubes too high in relation to the hull openings.  After a lot of sanding of any possible snag, it now just about sits right.




[/size]Now that the inner hull is done I spent some time on the wintergarten deck.
The Nautilus one, whilst excellent, requires you place it on top of the kit's existing plastic deck, doubling it's thickness.  It's probably completely fine to do that, but I wondered if I could replace the kit part with wood, which is what I have done here.  Although more authentic, it will need to be reinforced, and raises the question of how to attach the railings, perhaos I can CA a brass strip around the edge of the wood, and solder the rails to that.






Cheers!
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[/size]

[SG]

Great work with those saddle tank tops! Once puttied and sanded it will be just like the real thing. Am happy you are near to a solution for the torpedo tubes trouble either.
The idea of the brass strip + soldered railings sounds promising, but consider that the heat could melt or deform the plastic underneath the brass strip if you solder the railings after you have attached the strips to the outer wintergarten and "bandstand" edge. My advice is to do a feasibility study first.
Congrats for what you have achieved so far, top notch ability and thinking, am standing by for further progress!
SG