Revell Type IXC 1/72 - AMP Conning Tower Malings planned?

[dougie47]

Hi gents,

I don't have the Steel Boats book but I presume it shows the same photo of U 505 with Turm II as in Hunt And Kill? This photo shows the axe, Turm II and 10.5cm on foredeck. Note that in this photo the boat still has the 3.7cm on the aft deck (this was the original semi automatic 3.7cm SK C/30U that was fitted to the aft deck of all early IXs).

The Turm IV was fitted in the long refit between December 1942 and July 1943. At this time (according to Hunt and Kill) the Vierling was fitted and the 10,5cm deck gun removed. It does not mention if the 3.7cm SK C/30U gun was removed from the aft deck, but I presume it was.

Jon, thanks for the info from Hans' book. I'm not sure he is correct about the dates. You see, the 3.7mm M42 was the new automatic that the U-bootwaffe had been waiting for - it was not ordered until 15th October 1943 and was not fitted until late October, November and December 1943. (The full designation, I believe, was M42U in LM42U housing and this is the weapon which is currently on U 505). It surely cannot have replaced the Vierling in late July 1942. (I think the M42U replaced the Vierling on U 505 in the 8th November 1943 - 20th December 1943 refit). These guns were on the lower wintergarten platform, not the aft deck.

Could you perhaps tell me the exact quote on page 145? Thanks.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Dougie, sorry for any previous confusion.
 
First, on further inspection I think looks like a turm II, with battle axe on the left side and possibly Olympic rings on the front, I assume (with no proof) that there is a mirror image? battle axe on the other side. The picture is rather small and low resolution but I believe approximately where the old 3.7cm would have been there is a man standing on the deck. This picture is annotated:
U-505 leaves Lorient under the command of Peter Zschech. The boat's former emblem -the battle ax- is visible on the port side of the conning tower. Zschech left it there as a token of continuity between the two commanders. But on further thought it must be a turm IV, unless she was originally rebuilt with a turm II which was upgraded to a turm IV before she sailed on her 5th mission
 
On pages 85 and 86 of Steel Boats there are pictures of the U505 after the bombing by Flt. Sgt Sillcock which show a turm I and shows the area of the deck where the 3.7cm gun was.
 
The quote from Steel boat page 145 is:
 
For the next two weeks, our boat underwent repairs. They also replaced our huge four-barreled 20mm anti-aircraft gun with a newly designed single barreled Oerlikon 37mm automatic cannon. The trim little weapon worked flawlessly for us until the very end.
 
 
This paragraph is after the description of the 5th patrol during which the boat suffered from several suspected sabotage failures and several close depth charge explosions.
I have seen the 3.7cm M42 and M43 incorrectly described as Oerlikon in other publications. I believe it is used to allow people from the allied countries to visualise the weapon and its performance.
There is at least one other reference of the veirling being fitted, but I am unable to find it at this time.
 
Also on page 137, after Flt. Sgt. Sillcocks bombing of the U505 and repair, including the turm IV upgrade:
 
Next came the ammunition loading. Our boat's new armament made this a simple task compared to the old days, because the boxes of 20mm ammo were much easier to handle than the massive 105mm artillery rounds we used to store. That big quad-barrelled flak gun inspired a lot of confidence that we will be able to fend off attacks by aircraft.

 
The fitting of the quad 2cm is also mentioned in Hunt and Kill, as you say, which I am currently reading at work, so don't have a copy handy
 
Regards
Jon

[dougie47]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the info. I am pretty sure the image with the axe is the same one I am looking at now in Hunt and Kill. Although the quality is not great the boat looks like it has a Turm II (can't be 100% but it sure looks like a Turm II with a single 20mm on wintergarten platforms). Also, it is too early to be a Turm IV.

The fitting of a Turm II in August - October 42, and the fitting of Turm IV in 1943, fits in nicely with the dates that U-boats were fitted with Turms. All that is fine.

We already know that Zschench left for the Caribbean with a lower wintergarten platform (probably Turm II) and axe on 4th October 1942 due to the aforementioned photo. The only thing that concerns me is the photos of U 505 after the bombing by the Hudson on 10th November 1942. There is very little evidence of a lower platform in the photos after the attack. I have always thought the bomb had blown the 37mm aft deck gun and the lower wintergarten platform away. But surely there would be something left of the lower platform?

You mentioned a Turm I after the Hudson attack so you must also have noted the lack of wintergarten in the photos. What do you think? Do you think the lower platform could have been blown away? The boat left on patrol with a lower platform so surely it must have been blown away?

Yes, the "newly designed single barreled Oerlikon 37mm automatic cannon" must be the M42U automatic, though Hans' time period when it was fitted is open to debate.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Dougie
 
If the picture you are referring is captioned "Cheered on by well wishers", then that is the same picture and in my copy of Hunt and Kill the picture has slightly better resolution than my copy of Steel hearts.
Using that it does seem to show a turm II with a 10.5cm SK C32 on the forward deck,  1*2cm C38 on each of the tower platforms and a 3.7cm SK C30 on the rear deck.
 
Now in Steel boat that picture is not given any date and I find that date suspect, but I am going to have to go quiet on the subject as I need to sort out a time line, several things aren't fitting, e.g. the picture below in Hunt "While a watch scans" etc, is definitely a turm I pictured in a tropical setting. Plus the upper picture on the next page shows absolutely no sign of the additional platforms of the turm II, bit of a coincidence?
 
Regards
Jon

[dougie47]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for your input on this. Like you I am very uneasy about the time frame. I don't think my timeframe (posted on the other thread) can be correct for the Turm II. I was basing the Turm II fitting date partly on the "cheered on by well wishers" photo of Turm II and axe but I am seriously doubting the date given in the book caption.

I thought the photo "while a watch stands" could be off of West Africa during patrol 2. But I'm thinking now that it is during patrol 3.

Secondly, I previously posted my concerns about the lack of wintergarten after the Hudson attack. I've scanned it in so I could have a good look at it - I just cannot see any wintergarten.

This means that the "cheered on by well wishers" photo of Turm II and axe cannot have been taken on October 4th 1942. Also that the Turm II must have been fitted in refit 5X (in early 1943). Actually this might make sense as refit 4X is a bit early for a Turm II.

The info on page 79 of Hunt and Kill implies that it was a Turm IV that was fitted in 5X. This may be called into doubt if Turm II was actually fitted in 5X.

I'm now thinking that Turm IV might have been fitted in refit 7X in July 1943. Remember that from August 1943, no boat could go out on operations without a Turm IV, so a later refit is highly unlikely.

Cheers,

Dougie

[Capt Kremin]

Hi Dougie
 
I think I need to re-read Steel boats carefully again, I don't remember it mentioning when it was written anywhere, but I'm guessing that the notes for the book were written whilst Hans was a POW which would allow a reasonably fresh memory and able to discuss events with other crewmen as the book reads almost like a diary, with a lot of specific dates.
A question to ponder, would a vierling fit on the lower platform of a turm II?
Assuming Hans' dates are right, (I believe they are) then we have a definitive time that the vierling was fitted.
If I find anything useful I'll pm you
 
Regards
Jon