AMP - Accurate Model Parts
SEA => BB => Topic started by: Greif on 07 Feb , 2010, 12:24
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Barring a last gasp surge from one of the other contenders, it looks like the Bismarck is going to win. Leaning forward a bit, I'm starting a build thread. As I mentioned in the voting thread, I plan to build mostly OOB. The only aftermarket stuff I have bought are metal barrels for all the guns, from the monster 38cm main guns, down to the 2.0 cm AA guns. I also brought Eduard's Railing and Turret detail set. The only other change is to make my own wooden display base like I did for my U228 build. It should be a fun ride!
Ernest
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Hi Ernest,
Glad to hear the Bismarck won out in the end! You will have seen this site, I'm sure. But just in case -
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/bismarck_menu.html
There are loads of photos and other info on this site.
Cheers,
Dougie
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You've made the right choice. And one day you will get thru that whole list of other models...of course you'll also add as you go, but..
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And construction begins! The two attached photos show the box and the parts trees spread around the hull halves and desk. There are alot of parts, though 60 some are not used in the build.
I have joined the hull halves (pictures tomorrow) and the first that jumped out at me was the beam; this is one wide ship!
Ernest
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The box is open..!
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I've only made slight progress as I have been doing alot of research. Good thing to as the Bismarck went through a couple of weapon reconfigurations, a radar change on A turret and several paint schemes in her short service life. I have decided to model the Bismarck as she appeared in Norway a few days before she departed for her first and only combat mission. This time frame allows me to use all the weapons in the kit and I like the hull camo scheme; the one she arrived in Norway with.
The pictures show the hull as I am working through puttying, my least favorite modelling activity. I have drilled the two holes for attaching the brass pedestals which the ship will be mounted with when finished. The pictures don't show it, but I drilled two small hole in the stern above the waterline. They are located where the exhausts for the smoke generator was on the actual ship.
The next couple of shots are of the Arado Floatplanes before final cleaning up, and without the rear-firing gun and canopy. I decided to show one of the aircraft with folded wings for a little variation. Surprisingly, there was a good deal of flash on the floats and supporting structure, and one of the parts was way to thick needing some sanding to make it fit.
The final pictures are of two of the main gun turrets during the dry fitting of the metal barrels. The barrels are very high quality and replacing the kit parts was as simple as cutting off the plastic barrel, drilling a hole in the mounting part, inserting the barrel and attaching the assembly to the trunion part.
Hope you enjoy the pictures,
Ernest
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Thank you for the link Dougie, I have been doing ALOT of reading there and it was been very helpful.
Ernest
Hi Ernest,
Glad to hear the Bismarck won out in the end! You will have seen this site, I'm sure. But just in case -
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/bismarck_menu.html
There are loads of photos and other info on this site.
Cheers,
Dougie
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Greif, nice work so far. I like the small gun turret with one barrel at a different angle than the other too. Something you might see during a practice shoot.
Not sure if it's possible to do in the scale you're working at, but wouldn't the winge cross-section in the Arado with the folded wings be hollow with a bunch of connecting rods and cables and hydraulics whatever else might be inside?
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off to a good start!
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off to a good start!
Yep- im watching too.
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Hi Pat, you are correct that the Arado wings would have had framing, cables, etc. It would be nice to replicate them, but to be honest I don't think my modellings skills are up to the task of doing so.
Ernest
Greif, nice work so far. I like the small gun turret with one barrel at a different angle than the other too. Something you might see during a practice shoot.
Not sure if it's possible to do in the scale you're working at, but wouldn't the winge cross-section in the Arado with the folded wings be hollow with a bunch of connecting rods and cables and hydraulics whatever else might be inside?
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Wink and Siara, thanks for the encouraging words guys!
Ernest
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Greif, from what I've seen, I'm sure you've got the skills to do it. You just haven't come up against something like that before so haven't worked out the methods yet.
I'm guessing that the wing thickness you have to work with is perhaps 1 or 2 mm? that's more than enough. I made slots in my 20mm Flak guns for the magazines that can't be much different in size. (you don't have mag blanks to put in them along with that barrel do you?)
The size will be so small and dark inside that you won't have to do much detail to make it look right.
First off, if you can find out what it looks like inside, great. But my guess is finding a pic of the inside of an Arado wing is next to impossible.
So, instead, find out what the inside of some other folding wings of the period look like. There's bound to be a pic of a Corsair, Dauntless or something else with the wings folded. That will give you an idea of what do do, and you can extrapolate from wheel position where the hydraulics go, and the cables for ailerons etc. should be self-evident.
Then, using a series of drills, starting from smallest to largest that will fit, drill straight into the wing until you have it hollowed out perhaps a mm or two in. Paint the inside of this slot flat black perhaps mixed with a tinge of that awful green that they use for the inside of aircraft parts (or grey if it turns out that that's what the Germans used)
Then, use a sliver of paper paper cut to shape to fit the inside of your slot in the wing, drill holes into it to represent the holes in the wing chord (frame part) and for the cables/lines to go into. You might want to make two of these paper frames for each wing, one to put as far inside as you drilled and the other to put right at the outer edge. don't worry about the paper being soft, once painted and CA's, the paper will be as stiff as if it was brass.
Use bits of wire, stretched sprue, or maybe even the ends of cat's whiskers, whatever it takes to glue little stubs in the probable position of the cables etc., with some stubs sticking out to match up with corresponding holes and stubs in the fuselage.
Now, paint as required. Keeping mind that the initial black/green/dark grey inside will give apparent depth to the construction but at the same time hide the fact that it's only a few mm deep.
The wing breaks are so small that nobody will be able to see far inside, especially past the outer frame bit of paper. Therefore, it doesn't have to be extremely detailed, since just having the suggestion of detail will make people think it's there (just like the U-boat interiors I've been seeing built on this site)
Just the hint that such detail exists in the model will make people assume such detail is everywhere.
You DID ask for help and suggestions, right?
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Hi Pat, thanks for the detailed description! I'll take a look and see what I can come up with.
Regarding the 2.0cm mags, let me look at my spare parts box. I may have a few PE ones laying around that I can send along with the barrel. Again, just give me a PM on the site here with your address, and I will get them on the way to you.
Ernest
Greif, from what I've seen, I'm sure you've got the skills to do it. You just haven't come up against something like that before so haven't worked out the methods yet.
I'm guessing that the wing thickness you have to work with is perhaps 1 or 2 mm? that's more than enough. I made slots in my 20mm Flak guns for the magazines that can't be much different in size. (you don't have mag blanks to put in them along with that barrel do you?)
The size will be so small and dark inside that you won't have to do much detail to make it look right.
First off, if you can find out what it looks like inside, great. But my guess is finding a pic of the inside of an Arado wing is next to impossible.
So, instead, find out what the inside of some other folding wings of the period look like. There's bound to be a pic of a Corsair, Dauntless or something else with the wings folded. That will give you an idea of what do do, and you can extrapolate from wheel position where the hydraulics go, and the cables for ailerons etc. should be self-evident.
Then, using a series of drills, starting from smallest to largest that will fit, drill straight into the wing until you have it hollowed out perhaps a mm or two in. Paint the inside of this slot flat black perhaps mixed with a tinge of that awful green that they use for the inside of aircraft parts (or grey if it turns out that that's what the Germans used)
Then, use a sliver of paper paper cut to shape to fit the inside of your slot in the wing, drill holes into it to represent the holes in the wing chord (frame part) and for the cables/lines to go into. You might want to make two of these paper frames for each wing, one to put as far inside as you drilled and the other to put right at the outer edge. don't worry about the paper being soft, once painted and CA's, the paper will be as stiff as if it was brass.
Use bits of wire, stretched sprue, or maybe even the ends of cat's whiskers, whatever it takes to glue little stubs in the probable position of the cables etc., with some stubs sticking out to match up with corresponding holes and stubs in the fuselage.
Now, paint as required. Keeping mind that the initial black/green/dark grey inside will give apparent depth to the construction but at the same time hide the fact that it's only a few mm deep.
The wing breaks are so small that nobody will be able to see far inside, especially past the outer frame bit of paper. Therefore, it doesn't have to be extremely detailed, since just having the suggestion of detail will make people think it's there (just like the U-boat interiors I've been seeing built on this site)
Just the hint that such detail exists in the model will make people assume such detail is everywhere.
You DID ask for help and suggestions, right?
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Hull painting is finished. Also I have included a shot of the Bruno turret barbette.
Ernest
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And a few shots of the progess on Anton turret.
Ernest
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Fabulous looking hull Ernest.
Im sure it will be the centrepiece on the mantle.
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Thanks Siara, I am pleased with how the hull turned out. Painting the rest of the model is going to take alot more planning than usual. Between the deck and the three shades of grey for the superstructure, turrets, etc there are several colors close in to each other. I foresee alot of touching up with the brush on this one!
Ernest
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ahh, but the end effect will be worth it!
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Agreed Wink. I am almost finished painting the deck, it is a prime example of what I spoke about. I did not like the first paint job so I reprimed and repainted everything. I'll post pictures with a short report of my struggles after I am done touching up, probably tonight.
Ernest
ahh, but the end effect will be worth it!
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Finally got the deck painted and installed. I ended up painting the entire deck twice as I did not like how the wooden portion looked the first time. I used Parafilm to mask off the DKM 50 painted items before painting the wood a faded teak color. Overall I give my effort a "C" as I am still not completely satisfied with the look. I joined the deck to the hull using Tenax 7R which worked well giving me a 99% gap free join the first time. I still need to do some minor sanding and touching up after the plastic has cured. The hull has already gotten 3 good coats of future to protect it during the rest of the build.
Enjoy the pictures,
Ernest
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Good show Ernest.
I would use some oils to get that deck nicely weathered.
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Agreed Siara, I plan to mix up an appropriate shade for the wash, the ones I already have are probably a bit too dark, and give the deck a good wash. I'll then dry brush it for depth. To be honest I'm not looking forward to that little job. As you can see from the picture there are a TON of both large tiny areas painted DKM 50 that will have to be carefully avoided. I should have left them masked, grr!
Ernest
Good show Ernest.
I would use some oils to get that deck nicely weathered.
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Very very nice! I
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Nice work Ernest.
One question though. Why did you cement the deck to the hull before the turrents are all on? Or do you not plan to make the turrets swivel or the barrels elevate?
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Looking good!
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Very very nice! I
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Hi Pat, thanks for the encouragement. The way the main gun turrets install on the model they do not need to be fastened underneath to remain in place. I'll post a picture of one of the barbettes in the next photo update and you will know what I am talking about; it would take me a page to describe it. I plan to blue the secondary turrets and AA in place. The barrels for both the main and secondary armament does move. Again, I'll post photos of the main gun turrets later. I have finished painting them, but I'm too tired to drag out the camera and take pictures tonight. The way the barrels move in both types of turrets allow me to move them even if I decide to glue the turrets down.
Ernest
Nice work Ernest.
One question though. Why did you cement the deck to the hull before the turrents are all on? Or do you not plan to make the turrets swivel or the barrels elevate?
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Thanks Wink! This is turning out to be a beast of a build.
Ernest
Looking good!
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I have made some progress on the build; however not much of it has been photoworthy. The below shots show the deck after I washed it using a wash of 50/50 mix of yellow ochre and burnt sienna. I will drybrush the deck once the wash is dry.
The turrets are painted and sealed with Future. I am still chewing over how to weather them while keeping the effect in scale.
As I have stated the painting has turned into a major mask and paint job. I spend alot of time masking as some of the superstructure sections have three different colors. It is slow work.
Enjoy the pictures,
Ernest
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Those turrets look good, and menacing!
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Ah, I can see now in the first picture, how the big turrets lock in place but still turn after the deck is in position.
Nice colour for the teak deck. It looks just like the teak on my boat should look when it was brand new.
If you could understand what I was talking about regarding the decking in the'Sail' thread about the ship's cannon. The deck on Bismark here is an excellent example of 5-step butt planking, the most common and strongest. You can see how it shows where the support beams are underneath the deck, and the joint location repeats on the same beam every 5 planks.
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Thank Wink, I'm glad they are almost finished. Lots of tiny PE parts to fiddle with on those.
Ernest
Those turrets look good, and menacing!
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Hi Pat, now that I have a visual reference your detailed description of decking is clear now. Sometimes I need pictures to wrap my head around a technique!
Ernest
Ah, I can see now in the first picture, how the big turrets lock in place but still turn after the deck is in position.
Nice colour for the teak deck. It looks just like the teak on my boat should look when it was brand new.
If you could understand what I was talking about regarding the decking in the'Sail' thread about the ship's cannon. The deck on Bismark here is an excellent example of 5-step butt planking, the most common and strongest. You can see how it shows where the support beams are underneath the deck, and the joint location repeats on the same beam every 5 planks.
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Yes, for sure a picture is worth 1,00 words. It's too bad I'm having so many computer and photo problems or I could scan things in for you.
When/if you ever try doing a real wood, planked deck, take a close look at the way the joints are staggered on the Bismark deck. You want the joints to be the maximum distance possible between the next joint, and as I said, 40 feet is the usually longest plank.
I think on the Bismark, it might not have alternated the joint stagger (1-3-5-2-4), but might have had them as 1-2-3-4-5. (My computer's also very slow to go back a page and open up a picture), but the reason would be that Bismark doesn't rely on the deck for strength the same way as a wooden warship would.
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Three part update today. This build is turning into a "Touch up the touch ups." type of build. The different colors/shades for the superstructure is turning out to be a challenge. Also detailing the smaller guns with turned metal barrels and some PE stuff is eye-crossingly tough - at least for me. It all means progress is steady but very slow. Anyway, without further ado the pictures follow. The first set will be some superstructure shots, before sealing with Future and weathering. Set two of the pics will be a mix of the secondary battery and the 10.5 cm AA guns before priming and painting. The final post will finish up the 10.5's and show the single 3.7 cm I have finished construction on.
Hmm, the upload folder is full. I will post the pictures in the Gallery "On the Bench" section for now. I'll post the photos to this thread after the upload folder is enlarged.
Enjoy the pictures!
Ernest
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that dang thing gets full all the time, we've just added 25meg. checking the gallery...
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Minor progress today. I installed blast bags on the Main Gun turrets, they are made out of Blue Tack that I tectured and painted a canvas color. The turrets have been weathered and only need a matt coat to be complete. I also finished the 2.0 cm AA guns, which got new turned metal barrels. The flak Vierlings also got a couple of PR parts.
Ernest
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it all looks excellent, love the bags and the detail
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I have made a good bit of progress on the superstructure. Construction goes pretty fast once painting and the many touch ups are complete. The parts are going together pretty well, and I have only had to resort to a little trimming and sanding to get things to fit.
Enjoy,
Ernest
(http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/1817/ssfrombow.th.jpg) (http://img682.imageshack.us/i/ssfrombow.jpg/)
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2320/ssstbaft.th.jpg) (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/ssstbaft.jpg/)
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8093/ssstbbowabove.th.jpg) (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/ssstbbowabove.jpg/)
(http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/8914/ssstbbowdeck.th.jpg) (http://img682.imageshack.us/i/ssstbbowdeck.jpg/)
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2146/ssstbbow.th.jpg) (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/ssstbbow.jpg/)
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Thanks Wink!
it all looks excellent, love the bags and the detail
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A bit more progress to report. The superstructure is complete, and I am glad for it! All that remains is to gloss coat an weather it. I painted the white circles on the deck. I don't have a decal hakenkreuz in the right size so I ended up making a templete and painting them on. They turned out pretty average, but get the job done I suppose. I also painted the two Arado aircraft. Unfortunately I ended up with the dreaded "orange peel" effect for some reason - I'm not sure why as other items I painted that day turned out just fine. Fortunately, the scale is small enough it is not very noticable, unless one shoots a closeup photo that is!
Enjoy!
Ernest
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she feels big! Nice airplane, and coming along well, looking good
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Looking good Ernest. At least in those photos, I don't see the orange peel finish on the aircraft.
Not sure how much weathering you plan to do, she was an almost new ship after all. What are your plans?
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Thanks Pat. I was lucky that the Arado is small in this scale so the orange peel does not show up very much. I am going to do very light weathering effects on the model. All the reference photos I have looked at show very little if any rust. I plan to use a greyish wash on the superstructure, much the same shade as I did for the Main Gun turrets.
Ernest
Looking good Ernest. At least in those photos, I don't see the orange peel finish on the aircraft.
Not sure how much weathering you plan to do, she was an almost new ship after all. What are your plans?
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Hi Ernest,
That
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The one place I'd expect to see some obvious weathering would be the anchors and the anchor chains as they cross the deck and the Hakenkruez at the bow.
I don't know if her anchors were ever used, but I suspect that they would have been during acceptance and shakedown and even one use would take the paint of the chains and dragging the chains over the deck would cause some scratching.
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Interesting, WOULD they have been used? I agree with Pat that they would have at least been "exercised" and tested, and one time would be enough for "less than perfect" finishing.
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Thanks for the kind words Urpok. This has actually been a rather challenging build for me. I have never built a surface warship before, so I had to learn a couple of new techniques. Planning the build has also been a learning experience. Figuring out the proper sequence for the painting has been quite and exercise, and I have made a few mistakes along the way. Live and learn I guess!
Thanks again!
Ernest
Hi Ernest,
That
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Hi Wink and Pat, I am planning to do a bit of weathering. Your comments a dead on about the heaviest of that being around the anchor chains. I have to keep in mind that at this scale any chipping and rust, especially rust streaks are going to be quite small. I still have a ways to go with construction before I get to weathering. I will post some "in progress" photos later today.
Ernest
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Here are the pictures I promised earlier.
Ernest
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And a few more!
Ernest
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Ernest.. Very nice work.. Beautiful ship !
Bill
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Thank you Bill. This has been a difficult build with alot of discovery learning for me. Unfortunately, I also made alot of mistakes in both technique and presentation. The looks would not hold up so well under the magnifying glass, so I am lucky the model will not undergo that sort of examination!
Ernest
Ernest.. Very nice work.. Beautiful ship !
Bill
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That looks pretty good in the pictures Ernest.
I like the way you've simulated the shrouds for the turreted guns.
Are there PE railings for that scale? Or are they just too pricey and difficult for the number you'd need for that ship?
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Hi Pat, thanks for the encouraging comment. The model is just fine for display purposes; my problem with this build is that I know what I am capable of, and I did not get there this time. There are PE Railings for the kit; I have the ones for around the hull at deck level. The PE set which includes all the railings is fairly expensive and as this is somewhat of a "one off" build for me, I opted not to purchase it. I hate to admit it, but surface ship models just don't capture my heart, and building the Bismarck has been a bit of a grind.
As an aside, the same friend of my wife that I built the cannon kit for saw the build a couple of weeks ago. Her husband likes to display ships and subjects related to ships, but, according to her, does not have the time or skills to build them. She asked my wife if I could build a 1/350 model of the USS Hornet for her to surprise her husband with on their anniversary this fall. Of course my dear spouse told her I would be glad to build the model (sigh). So I now have the Trumpeter USS Hornet kit, with 3 additional aircraft sets and a PE set of 2.0 cm AA guns (which do look pretty cool) waiting in the wings. Fortunately, I have much more time than with the cannon to build the model; the couple's anniversary is in mid-November. Also fortunately, the Hornet has ALOT fewer parts then the Bismarck so planning painting and construction sequences should not be the nightmare for me that this build has been.
Ernest
That looks pretty good in the pictures Ernest.
I like the way you've simulated the shrouds for the turreted guns.
Are there PE railings for that scale? Or are they just too pricey and difficult for the number you'd need for that ship?
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Wives! well, enough said
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I can definitely understand the scenario of skills outpacing justificable finances to install PE railings. There are certainly a lot of those railing on Bismark and once you've put in one rail, it's not much of a challenge to put in others.
I built several WWII surface ships for my father when I was still a teenager, and my skills weren't nearly what they are now. Like you, I could easily do a far better job on them now, and although I appreciate the effort that others have done on some, my interests don't lie with WWII surface ships. WWII U-boats, for sure, and perhaps a PT boat would be interesting, but not any others.
Good thing you have so much more advance warning for the Hornet build. I've been there before too (with the wife volunteering me for something that wasn't my cup of tea - not building Hornet). Fortunately, I have her aware enough to mention that such a build might need a year, not just a few summer months.
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guns look especially good. Hey, it's another notch i the built and hopefully some fun too!
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Great work Ernest. I know of the perils with PE (1/700 being incredibly difficult) I began bashing a Missouri kit in September and came to a standstill when I realized what I wanted to get and how much it would cost...Happily my VIIC fell in my lap to fill the void. Now seems like it will consume the majority of the time . All in fun. Keep up the great work, looking forward to seeing more.
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Thanks for the kind comments guys! I have not put in much time on the Bismarck in the past two weeks. The weather in Bavaria has been mostly very nice and I have been putting in alot of kilometers road cycling. I also got the usual spring "honeydo" project from my dear wife; this year it is building a greenhouse. I hope to be finished with that little project by the end of this weekend. Then maybe I can get around to finishing the Bismarck as there is not much left to do on the build.
Stay tuned!
Ernest
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Glad you enjoyed the cycling, good luck with the greenhouse!
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Hi guys, the riding/racing season is over and I am nearly ready to begin my annual Fall/Winter building period. I probably will not be able to build as many models this year as I normally I am able to complete. There is a good reason for that though - I am building out the room above the garage which will be my new modelling room when it is complete. If all goes well I hope to have it finished before Christmas.
Regarding this build; I should have it finished in 8-10 hours of work. I will post some pictures soon of the progress I have made since my last posts.
It is good to be back!
Ernest
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As promised, I have posted some shots of the most recent work on the ship.
This one is nearing completion!
Ernest
(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9329/overallshot2.jpg)
(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2863/capstandetail.jpg)
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1994/anchorchains.jpg)
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7341/midshiprailing.jpg)
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1007/bowrailing.jpg)
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And a few more pictures.
Ernest
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6157/stweathered.jpg)
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1255/weatheredturret2.jpg)
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Wow, beautiful build! The canvas gun bags are perfect, too! Even the display - but you're going to need a case to keep the dust off!
Great stuff!
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Thanks Wink! And here are a few shots of the completed model.
(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6333/finaloverall2.jpg)
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/829/finaloverall.jpg)
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9430/rearqtr1.jpg)
(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7427/abturrets2.jpg)
(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5691/abturrets.jpg)
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And a final few pictures.
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4301/arado2.jpg)
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7629/arado1.jpg)
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4765/flagsc.jpg)
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Looking nice, but i would consider giving the flags bit of the sag, as on Winks sub f.e.
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Looking nice, but i would consider giving the flags bit of the sag, as on Winks sub f.e.
Unfortunately, they are decals from the sheet that came with the kit and will not wave or droop. I tried with two of the signal flags and ruined them. I considered leaving the flags off at that point, but thought "What the hell, they add a bit of color and this model will not be entered into any contests." So I ended up putting them on.
If any of you are planning to build this kit for competition, don't use the decals.
Ernest
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Ernest,
She is looking great! Your attention to detail is great!
The flags are understandably a little "flat". If you change your mind and want to change....find the flag picture online, scale it down, copy, paste and reverse one copy, butt the two together(like in the picture), print it out. I used good old fashion typing paper for mine. I have seen others use rolling papers taped onto plain paper (print it 1st to find location) before you feed it into the printer. Light weight paper is fine too.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TLsxySGINcI/AAAAAAAAAXk/86to24ZKROw/s640/LastScan.jpg)
Then take the flag, glue it together with white glue. (Thinned) Take the thinned white glue and lightly dampen the flag and wrap it around different dowels in all directions and let dry, giving the natural flow. Drill two tiny hole for the halliard attachment and rig it up.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_FaFEYk1xjY8/TLsyHaJ7iPI/AAAAAAAAAXg/pRbiMFNgrws/DSC01870.JPG)
Not as nice as AMP's cloth flags, but it certainly does the trip. And, if you screw up, pitch it and print another.
Keep up the great work!
Cheers!
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Thanks TRM. I may revisit the flags at a later date and update them with something better.
Ernest
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TRM, I like your method of making flags, it's probably second best after the cloth flags like AMP carries which can't be beat.
However, when I put up a flag on a model, I add a couple more details if possible, depending on the scale.
On a ship, the flags are not tied through a grommet (hole) at the top and bottom. There are two main ways that the flags are attached.
The more modern way is to have a metal hook, called a Brummel Hook, (after the inventor Isambard Kingdom Brummel - builder of SS Great Britain, Great Eastern and Great Western) which is a sort of circle with a notch in it that can be attached to a similar hook on the halliard, but with ONLY attach if rotated 90 degrees, which can't happen accidentally.
Obviously, you can't have these hooks on ships from before the late Victorian era when Brummel was alove, so the more traditional method is to have a toggle on the upper part of the flag and a short lanyard (or sometimes a loop) on the lower. The flag halyard.(or halliard) has a similar toggle on it's lower part and either just straight rope or a loop on the upper part. When a flag is attached, the toggle goes through the loop (or the lanyard is tied to the toggle) at each end. There is usually no grommets on the flag but a boltrope is sewn inside the hoist (inner part of the flag, often a white strip of fabric to which the coloured part is attached) with the toggle protruding at one end and the lanyard/loop at the other.
The boltrope is easy to make with TRM's method by just putting a bit of thread inside before you fold the two halves of the flag over. The toggle is a bit more difficult, but usually a small, stiff wire will suffice. Tie the "boltrope" around the wire, touch with CA and then trim off the ends to the desired length.
Note also as in TRM's picture that there is always, always, always a block (pulley) at the top of the yard that the flag halyard goes through. TRM also has it right in that the flag is stopped about a foot short of the block so that the flag doesn't get jammed with flapping in the breeze.
There's also a rule of thumb for flag sizes (at least in the old sailing navies) that there should be a minimum of 1" of fly (the horizontal part of the flag) for every foot of the ship's length to a maximum of 1" of hoist for every foot of length. This doesn't apply so much to to motorized ships these days but was still common up until the early 20th century.
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Thanks Pat! I try to learn one thing a day....here I think I learned about 5! ::) Brummel...interesting. I agree with the 1" per foot rule. Not sure if they took this into consideration on the ole Brit Man of Wars, did they not fly a massive form of the Union Jack off their stern coupled with the extremely long pendent? Must have been a Captain's choice...Still it is an impressive sight
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfjpwQ9MxOYvMTT8JUFkhJU9IsCEoAZcnaOp3aRcXpT-BPCMY&t=1&usg=__UTXWFYlmDs12MTu8iOQY8O42hx0=)
Trying not to get off track here, could talk for days about the old wooden ships. ;D
Good luck Ernest. Looking forward to more postings.
Cheers!
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Here's a couple of pix of Brummel hooks.
http://www.hathaways.com/xcart/product_thumbnails/t_16216.jpg
In use showing how two hooks go together to attach lines to each other.
http://www.airsportssupply.com/DOCUMENTS/BrummelHook%20LINE.jpg
A closeup drawing of a Brummel hook. Usually the opening part is angled, making it unlikely to come apart by accident but easy to take apart intentionally with a quick flip of hte wrist.
Yes, the British and French ships of the Napoleonic era seemed to go overboard with some extremely large flags. I don't know whether they really were that big or if it was just artistic license by the painters of the day.
Of course, since many captured ships were reused by the other side (mostly captured French ships used by the British, the French didn't win many naval battles), they might have used huge flags to make sure that they weren't fired upon by their own ships.
The long penants at the tops of the mast were a different matter and didn't have any standard size as far as I could tell. The reason they were so long was tso that the helmsman could see them at all points of sail in nearly all weather and thereby be able to see which direction the wind was blowing at the top of the mast, since that heled in steering the boat.
Today, the long pendant is mostly replaced by an pivoting arrow with reflective patches on it to show up at night by the lmasthead light. Even newer are modern electronic instruments like anemometers and dynamic instruments with no moving parts.
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Thanks again Pat. Ahh technology....makes sense, better data, faster...SAFER! But part of me respects these "old ways". A certain honor and courage involved with old naval battles even up to WWII. Ships battling out on the high seas.
"Veni, vidi, vici" They went out and hunted, found and conquered.
;)